Abuse of Michael Jackson led to his death?

As the 5 year anniversary of Michael Jackson’s passing comes upon us, the subject of his death and the causes thereof, have become a hot topic of conversation once again.

Many feel that the poor treatment and abuse from those surrounding Michael Jackson, including the concert promoters, AEG, contributed to his downfall and death.  This was the basis for the law suit that Mrs. Katherine Jackson, Michael’s mother, brought against the concert promoters.  Below, a video showing these facts, as well as Tweets from Karen Faye, who was Michael Jackson’s long-time makeup artist, who shares her recollections of what happened during that time.

Sobering thoughts….

You have no idea what this is like.  He is a self-loathing, emotionally paralyzed mess…I just slapped him. …I slapped him on the butt. ~ Randy Phillips of AEG

 

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Video by Kelly LaFleur

 Karen Faye’s Tweets regarding Michael’s death:

5 years ago today Kenny Ortega went with Randy Phillips to Carolwood, when Michael did not show up for rehearsals, threatening to “pull the plug” and take everything away, if he did not get it together…even could lose his children.

When KO returned to the Forum, where I/we were waiting for Michael, Kenny came into my room and told me what Randy Phillips said and did. He demanded I treat Michael with “tough love”…no more hand holding. I had to get Michael on stage. I could make him tea, if he wanted it. He said Michael would be coming in shortly.

This evening, 5 years ago, a tall man accompanied Michael to rehearsals. Pointing to the man sitting in front of the stage with a cell phone up to his ear, Kenny Ortega explained to me that was Dr. Conrad Murray. the doctor that Randy Phillips hired for Michael. One of the “top 10” doctors in the world. I was never introduced to him, and that was all I ever saw of Conrad Murray.

Michael usually smiled and we would joke around…but no matter how hard I tried, he was silent, sad and stoic this night. Knowing what Randy Phillips had threatened him with…I knew he was frightened this night, 5 years ago.

5 years ago…panic was setting in. Kenny Ortega continued to cut up Michael’s chicken breast…coaxing him to eat.

Michael began shivering uncontrollably….

I moved his space heater over to a table near the small sofa in his dressing room where he sat shaking. I wrapped every blanket I could find around his body and put my arms around him. Kenny came in to tell him to report to the stage.

I told Kenny to call his doctor immediately…Kenny returned about 10 minutes later with Conrad Murray’s only instruction “keep him warm”

5 years ago today, Kenny Ortega finally saw how sick Michael was, and sent him home.

I asked the same question to Randy Philips. Randy replied that he had called Branca in to “build a wall around Michael, so Michael would only need to deal with rehearsing”

 

 

 

FULL Transcript of Taped Phone Conversation between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz

This transcript originally comes from Helena from the VindicateMJ blog.  To see her post and commentary, visit http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/evan-chandler-and-david-schwarz-full-transcript/

Evan Chandler – David Schwartz phone talk FULL TRANSCRIPT

March,

by Helena from vindicatemj

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DAVID SCHWARTZ, AN INDIVIDUAL, )

PLAINTIFF, ) CASE NO.

VS. ) SC

EVAN CHANDLER, AN INDIVIDUAL, AND )

DOES  THROUGH , INCLUSIVE, )

DEFENDANTS. )

TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CASSETTE MARKED

EXHIBIT NO.

D. SCHWARTZ AND E. CHANDLER

FILE NO. TPA.MK

CONVERSATION

between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

MR. CHANDLER: — discuss why it might be harmful. Suppose I’m right? I mean if Michael loves [tape irregularity] Lisa at least want to hear my opinion about why what’s going on could be potentially harmful? If you love somebody, you don’t want them to get hurt.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk it in front of Jordy, about that?

MR. CHANDLER: Huh?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk about that in front of Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, yeah, absolutely. He has to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He has to be there, and one of the reasons that he has to be there is because he’s always gonna remember it. Somebody has to be the — there’s gotta be some one person that later on in life he can look back on and kind of pattern himself after someone or have some structure for his own existence, based on — he’ll look at me, and he’ll say, “Yeah. He was honest, he had integrity, he had respect. I could trust him. He never lied to me,” all that kind of stuff. He may hate me now. He may not be able to articulate all of those things in his own head right now, but when he sees it, it’ll be in his head, and when he’s old enough there will be those things that will be important to him. Hopefully I’ll be able to portray those things to him, because I think they’re important.

I also think it’s incredibly important to have somebody else in your life that really loves you and you really love them because if you’re [tape irregularity] happy. I’ve never seen a single solo, isolated human being who was truly happy –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s what’s going to happen to Jordy. I think that’s June’s situation.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: June has nobody. You tell me who June has. You tell me who June has who really loves her, who she really loves back, you can’t think of one person.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I can.

MR. CHANDLER: Who?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria.

MR. CHANDLER: Gloria.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Really.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible.)

MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria, Nadine or Florence. She’s pretty close with her friends.

MR. CHANDLER: Nah, she’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: She’s — wait.

MR. CHANDLER: She believes that –

MR. SCHWARTZ: She’s close with you.

MR. CHANDLER: — four or five cups of caffeine in the morning and gets on the phone and yaps (inaudible) all day, you commiserate about their miseries –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, here’s the whole thing. We can’t, you know, I can’t put her down that all she’s doing is hanging out. It’s not so horrible.

MR. CHANDLER: That what?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That, you know, I mean, she’s into hanging out.

MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out is okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. She’s –

MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out’s kind of a benign thing. She’s not hanging out anymore. When she stopped hanging out –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and became actively destructive in Jordy’s life is when I stepped in and when I decided I have to do something about it. I tried to talk to her about it, Dave, on several occasions.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we know she’s hard to talk to.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you could — if you could — yes. I mean, that’s unquestionable. She is impossible to talk to. And I’ve never really — I mean, I’ve gotten angry with her many times and –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity] long as you’ve stepped in –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: — the issue has never involved potentially harming Jordy for the rest of his life –

MR. SCHWARTZ: [Tape irregularity.]

MR. CHANDLER: — issues over Jordy before that I’ve backed down –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because you asked me to or whatever the reason was –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I’ve never been — I’ve never been that set on pursuing it until now because I truly believe this will damage him for the rest of his life. And she will not — and I’ve told her that, and I’ve tried to talk to her about that –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she’s not willing to talk to me about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She doesn’t even want to hear what might be harming him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She doesn’t want to even know — she doesn’t want to hear any words.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What if –

MR. CHANDLER: “Get out of my face. Don’t even mention that.” That’s not an issue for her. I mean, what kind of person is that? If — I stopped taking that personally.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we all have different ways of coping.

MR. CHANDLER: You see, as an adult, coping’s no excuse. That’s like driving drunk and saying, “I’m sorry, but I didn’t realize there was a law against driving drunk” and you just ran on the sidewalk. The fact is you’re a responsible adult. You’re supposed to have some sense and judgment, and that’s how it’s going to go down.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. How about if you, June and I get together?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Why do you keep doing that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t — I don’t want to subject Jordy to this until — I mean, I feel very uncomfortable –

MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way: I have a set routine of words that I’m going to go in there that have been rehearsed and I’m going to say.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Because I don’t want to say anything that could be used against me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So I know exactly what I can say. That’s why I’m bringing the tape recorder.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I have some things on paper to show a few people –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s it. My whole part is going to take two or three minutes, and I’m going to turn around [tape irregularity], and that’s it. There’s not going to be anything said, other than what I’ve been told to say –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m going to turn around and leave, and they’re going to have a decision to make.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And based on that decision, I’ll decide whether or not we’re going to talk again or whether it’s going to go further.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I have to make a phone call. As soon as I leave the house, I get on the telephone.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I make a phone call.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Say “Go” or I say, “Don’t go yet,” and that’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — the way it’s gonna to be. I’ve been told what to do, and I have to do it. I’m not — I happen to know what’s going to be going on, see? They don’t have to say anything to me. [Tape irregularity] “you have refused to listen to me. Now you’re going to have to listen to me. This is my position. Give it a thought.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “Think it over.” I’m not saying anything bad about anybody, okay? I’ve got it all on paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to hand out the paper so that I don’t inadvertently [tape irregularity], handing out the paper, “Michael, here’s your paper. June, here’s your paper.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “Compare papers. Read this whole thing. This is my feelings about it. Do you want to talk further? We’ll talk again.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “If you don’t” [tape irregularity] — but, see, all I’m trying to do now, they have forced me to go [tape irregularity] on paper and give it to them to read –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because [tape irregularity]. I mean, isn’t that pitiful? Now, why would they want to cut me out, to go this far, spend this much money, spend so much time in my life crying, being away from my practice, not paying [tape irregularity] everybody else? Why would they want to put me through that? And I made it very clear to June that she was putting me through that because I didn’t want any misunderstandings. I’ve done everything I could to appeal to her. (Inaudible) is cold and heart- – absolutely cold and heartless. That’s all –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, maybe on the surface it appears like that, but I –

MR. CHANDLER: I know on the surface June is charming –

MR. SCHWARTZ: No, no. I think on the surface it might appear cold, but I don’t — I don’t agree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Dave, “Go fuck yourself” is not a surface reaction.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Have you ever — you mean you have never done that, right?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) and they say “Go fuck yourself,” that’s not a surface –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You’ve never done it?

MR. CHANDLER: — sorry.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You’ve never done it? I mean, have you ever got pissed at a friend and gotten in an argument for three weeks?

MR. CHANDLER: No, no, no.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Never, ever?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) — like that, Dave, not consistently like that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) — so far as to go to say, “Okay. Forget about me. This is what’s going on with Jordan. This is my concern,” and have her say “Go fuck yourself” again. So [tape irregularity] there I said, “This is not a human being I’m dealing with anymore.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you this — I mean, did you give Jordy any ultimatums?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Because, see, that’s how he feels trapped, I think.

MR. CHANDLER: Too bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why — I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: All he has to do is talk to me about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but how can you — I mean, you know what you could do — I mean, couldn’t you approach it like saying, “Jordy, this is how I feel. This is why communications is important. We gotta discuss this.”

MR. CHANDLER: This is what I said to Jordy. I said, “What if I asked you not to do

something?” That’s how I put it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He said, “I wouldn’t care.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s what he said.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what’s wrong with that?

MR. CHANDLER: What’s wrong?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean, what is wrong with that?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, let me ask you this: Never in his life, ever, would he have — did he ever respond that way or would he have ever responded that way –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — which means that something has happened inside of him and in his life that is now making him respond to me in a totally different way. What has happened to him? His mother’s changed, and Michael’s in his life, and you weren’t there to balance it out. And that’s it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, and I wasn’t there, and you’re right.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I wasn’t there to discuss it with him.

MR. CHANDLER: So the whole thing happened.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And that’s it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: So blame me.

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, I’m not blaming you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But it is my fault.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible).

MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s my fault. I wasn’t there to –

MR. CHANDLER: No, no. You don’t understand. We’re gonna see whose fault it is. And I’m gonna tell you: It isn’t up to you to decide whose fault it is or up to me to decide whose fault it is. Other people who are trained to [tape irregularity] whose fault it is are going to make that decision, and I’ll bet you anything that they don’t decide that it’s your fault. You’re not going to get blamed, and you can go and say whatever you want. No one’s [tape irregularity] they may say, “That’s very nice. Get the fuck out of here, and let’s get down to the real issues,” but that’s it. That’s what’s going to happen. I’m not getting blamed and you’re not getting blamed. And that’s — I mean –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But no one should get blamed. I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) talking about bottom line because that’s what it’s really going to come down to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — bottom line, no one’s gonna give a shit about you in this issue.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So when you tell me that I should blame you, that’s not the bottom line. That’s not how it’s going to be seen (simultaneous, inaudible).

MR. SCHWARTZ: But does there have to be where someone’s at fault? Can’t it be where we just work it out?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you see — yeah. That’s why I tried to get in touch with them, to (simultaneous, inaudible) work it out –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well, but that’s — wait.

MR. CHANDLER: — but they don’t want to talk to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Well, that’s not true. That is not true.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) till tomorrow –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Have you ever gone through a period where you just didn’t — wait. Of course you have. Of course you have.

MR. CHANDLER: Dave –

MR. SCHWARTZ: When I screamed at Monique to get you to call me.

MR. CHANDLER: So what? That was one day. Two days.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But it didn’t matter — it can’t count the days.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I have to count the days because I can’t let it go on forever. By the way, they’re going on tour on August th. They’re going to be gone. They’re going to be out of the country –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — for four months.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Is that bad?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I’m not going to be able to communicate with them about this when they’re gone, am I?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, but you think that –

MR. CHANDLER: By the way, they’re not going.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They don’t know that yet, but they are not going.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So, I mean, especially if they don’t show up tomorrow, they’re definitely not going. They’ll be lucky if Michael even –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you — let me ask you this –

MR. CHANDLER: — tour (inaudible) get canceled.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me — let me ask you this: I mean, why can’t you meet — why can’t we meet after I get off work?

MR. CHANDLER: Because –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, why not? What’s the difference?

MR. CHANDLER: Seems to me it’s not important enough for you to take off work to be –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It is important enough, but I still –

MR. CHANDLER: Fuck your job.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s still going to be there at :. This whole thing’s going to take five minutes.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’ve already told you I have — I’m not allowed to say anything more –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — than I’ve already prepared. It’s on paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it your –

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going in to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it because of your attorney?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because of your attorney?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why don’t we meet at your attorney’s office?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s something we can do if we get past tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He’s willing to meet with them. Right now he’d like to kill them all. I picked the nastiest mother-fucker I could find.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The only reason that I’m meeting with them tomorrow is, the real fact of the matter is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because of Monique.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Monique begged me to do it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She said, “You’re out of control” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Can Monique be there?

MR. CHANDLER: Tomorrow?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She wanted to be there, but –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I want her to be there.

MR. CHANDLER: I wouldn’t let her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why not?

MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates Monique.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s not true.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know something?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That is not true –

MR. CHANDLER: Now –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — at all.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, really! Well, then that makes Jordy a liar, and that makes Michael a liar.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: They both told me that Monique — that June –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. You can’t see that whole thing?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s woman jealousy.

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t care what –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn’t matter –

MR. CHANDLER: The problem is you’re in love with her so you keep on making excuses.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not in love with her anymore. I don’t even like her anymore.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t know about female jealousy?

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t care about that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That has nothing –

MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) Dave. That’s pathologic. I don’t want that affecting –

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s not pathologic. That is the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) pathologic. I don’t care what the reason is. I don’t care. I’m not playing psychiatrist and analyzing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why wouldn’t you want Monique there? I would feel much more comfortable.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible), that’s why.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates her, so I don’t want to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: She does not hate her.

MR. CHANDLER: Of course she hates her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: She totally respects her and doesn’t hate her.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, Jordy is a liar and Michael (inaudible) –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

MR. CHANDLER: — because they told me verbatim, together –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

MR. CHANDLER: — that June hates Monique. In fact, they went even further and told me several of the things that June said about Monique.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Now, maybe they went back and told June that Monique said things about her and –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) lied. Maybe they’re lying. I don’t know. But knowing June, I don’t think that they lied. I think they’re telling me the truth.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I want Monique out of this completely.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because all that will happen is that June will convince Jordy that Monique’s a bad person and by her presence there she must have put me up to this whole thing –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and June will fabricate some great lie –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Ahhh.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) I’m only going there because of Monique, because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to see everybody get destroyed –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — like they’ve destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier. And Monique just kept telling me, “You don’t want to really do this,” and she finally [tape irregularity] for the sake of everything that we’ve all had in the past –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to give it one more try, and that’s the only reason, because this attorney I found — I mean, I interviewed several, and I picked the nastiest son of a bitch

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I could find, and all he wants to do is get this out in the public as fast as he can, as big as he can –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and humiliate as many people as he can, and he’s got a bad [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s good?

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) he’s costing me a lot of money.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s good?

MR. CHANDLER: I think that’s great. I think it’s terrific. The best. Because when somebody — when somebody tells you that they don’t want to talk to you –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you have to talk to them –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you have to get their attention. It’s a matter of life and death. That’s how I’m taking it. I have to talk to them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: This is life and death for my son. I have to get their attention. If I don’t get it, if I haven’t gotten it on the phone and I don’t get it tomorrow –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — this guy will certainly get it. That’s the next step. And you want to know something? I even have somebody after him if he doesn’t [tape irregularity]. But I don’t want [tape malfunctioned]. I’m not kidding. I mean what I told you before.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s true. I mean, it could be a massacre if I don’t get what I want. But I do believe this person will get what he wants.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So he would just really love [tape irregularity] nothing better than to have this go forward. He is nasty, he is mean –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — he is very smart [tape irregularity], and he’s hungry for the publicity [tape irregularity] better for him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And that’s where it’ll go –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think everyone loses?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) totally humiliate him in every way –

MR. SCHWARTZ: That — everyone doesn’t lose in that?

MR. CHANDLER: That’s not the issue. See, the issue is that if I have to go that far –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I can’t stop and think “Who wins and who loses?”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: All I can think about is I only have one goal, and the goal is to get their attention –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — so that [tape irregularity] concerns are, and as long as they don’t want to talk to me, I can’t tell them what my concerns are, so I have to go step by step, each time escalating the attention-getting mechanism, and that’s all I regard him as, as an attention-getting mechanism. Unfortunately, after that, it’s totally out of [tape irregularity]. It’ll take on so much momentum of its own that it’s going to be out of all our control. It’s going to be monumentally huge, and I’m not going to have any way to stop it. No one else is either at that point. I mean, once I make that phone call, this guy’s just going to destroy everybody in site in any devious, nasty, cruel way that he can do it. And I’ve given him full authority to do that. To go beyond tomorrow, that would mean I have done every possible thing in my individual power to tell them to sit down and talk to me; and if they still [tape irregularity], I got to escalate the attention-getting chanism. He’s the next one. I can’t go to somebody nice [tape irregularity]. It doesn’t work with them. I already found that out. Get some niceness and just go fuck yourself.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Basically, what they have to know, ultimately, is that their lives are over, if they don’t sit down. One way or the other, it’ll either go to the next step or the [tape irregularity]. I’m not stopping until I get their attention. Do I [tape irregularity] the only goal is right now I have to do what I think is best for Jordy –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I think what’s going on now is bad for Jordy, and therefore any alternative is better. If I’m wrong, they should sit down, and they should tell me why I’m wrong.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So wouldn’t you sit down with me, and we could discuss it first?

MR. CHANDLER: No, because you don’t know the issues.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you could tell me.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) totally ignorant of all the issues. No. There’s really no way you could relate these to somebody, you know.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah? Well, sure you could.

MR. CHANDLER: Like it’ll get related. It’ll get related, you know. You’ll see it. You’ll see it, and it’s not going to be up for me or you to decide.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Can you meet him here at work?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, no. I’m going to meet at the house.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why can’t you meet here?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, for one thing, ichael has to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Michael will come.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) won’t be at Rent a Wreck.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael would come here.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, how do you know that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll see. I mean, if he’ll come here, will you do it here?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Why?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because it’s easier for me.

MR. CHANDLER: So you could be at work?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. So I don’t have to leave.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) signals.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: You keep giving me these –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s not crossed signals. I’m telling you it’s — I’m here every second. It’s difficult to get away.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you have to get your priorities –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but my priority is this, but, I mean, you can compromise for me.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) tell me this is very difficult choice, you know, your children or your work.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, it’s not a difficult choice.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But it’s just –

MR. CHANDLER: — the issue, then. Be it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It makes it — wait. What’s the difference –

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) work by : o’clock.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What is the difference for you? I mean, it makes it easier for me. Is it different for you?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Why is it different?

MR. CHANDLER: What if I told you their  house was wired?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Does that make a difference?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not saying it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m just saying, “What if it was?”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well –

MR. CHANDLER: Would that — would you — could you see the [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Then you want to record it.

MR. CHANDLER: Let’s just say that it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Let’s just say that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not saying it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: But let’s just say that it was. Okay? That would make a difference. (Inaudible)?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. You got to do me one favor.

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. The way we’ve just talked is completely — the way you’ve sounded is completely different than when I talked to you the first time. I mean, you gotta be –

MR. CHANDLER: Well, (inaudible) talking tomorrow, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: I told you, it’s all on paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s why I’m bringing a tape recorder.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but are you going to be calm like this?

MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to say.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going to be calm. I’m not going to be anything. I’m not going to be — I’m going to be totally void of anything.

I’m just going to say, “Look. Here’s something for you guys to read. You read it. You think it over.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “If you want to sit down and talk, we can all meet in my attorney’s office.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “If you want to tell me to go fuck myself, then just let me know that” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — “and I’ll let him know that’s what your feelings are.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why do you –

MR. CHANDLER: — and that has to — that has to happen before : o’clock tomorrow. They have to make that decision –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And let me ask you this –

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) don’t hear from them about it, then the wheels start –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you have to have Jordy there, if all we’re going to do is read it?

MR. CHANDLER: I tried to explain that to you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. If we have to read something.

MR. CHANDLER: Because I explained that to you. I want him to see how I’m behaving.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I want him to see how I’m acting.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you have to have Michael there?

MR. CHANDLER: What’s that beeping going on? Do you hear that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Are you recording this?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No.

MR. CHANDLER: Do you hear the beeping?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, let’s hang up.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.

(Tape , Side B begins:)

CONVERSATION  between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

(Dial tone.)

MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, Ev.

MR. CHANDLER: Hi, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: How you doing? Thanks for calling me back.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. I’m in the car. I’m on the way home.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Where are you?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’m at work.

MR. CHANDLER: You’re at [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: You want to come by here?

MR. CHANDLER: No. I’m wasted, Man.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I’m — we gotta talk this out.

MR. CHANDLER: Nothing to talk about.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Of course we can talk it out.

MR. CHANDLER: Just be there tomorrow if you want to hear what I want to say. That’s all. And if they’re not there, then there’s nothing that anybody has to say, and that’s the end of it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you this:

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What if like, say, June and I are there?

MR. CHANDLER: No good.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: They all have to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: They all have to be there. In fact, if anybody were missing, it would be June that I wouldn’t care the most.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Who?

MR. CHANDLER: June. The one that I care the most about –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. How about if Jordy and I go?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Jordy and you?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: That’s silly. No. Michael has to be there. Michael has to be there. He’s the main one. He’s the one I want.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think he’s a bad guy?

MR. CHANDLER: Michael?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He’s an evil guy. He’s worse than bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you believe that?

MR. CHANDLER: Huh?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you believe that?

MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence to prove it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You’ll believe it, too, when you hear –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Let me ask you something. I mean, you trust me, right?

MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way, Dave. Nobody in this world was allowed to come between this family of June, me and Jordy. That was the hard [tape irregularity] be the opposite. That’s evil. That’s one reason why he’s evil. I spoke to him about it, Dave. I even told him that [tape irregularity] the family.

MR. SCHWARTZ: When did you talk to him?

MR. CHANDLER: About that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Months ago. When I first met him I told him that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s the law. That’s the first thing he knew. Nobody’s allowed to do that. Now there’s no family anymore.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean Jordy’s — Jordy’s my life. Period.

MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) my life. What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it?

MR. CHANDLER: It doesn’t. It doesn’t.I don’t know how it’ll help it. It can’t hurt it anymore. It’s — I have — that’s why I have nothing to lose. I made this really clear to them. If they’re all there, we could all sit and talk. If they’re not there –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask – okay.

MR. CHANDLER: — taking it out of my hands, and there won’t be any talking anymore. They have a chance. They have a chance to talk it out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: If they’re not in a calm, peaceful manner –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — even said you can be there. You could be there. I’m not going to do anything with you there. Michael can come with  bodyguards and all with guns if he wants to. He can even come there with his [tape irregularity]. I don’t care. All I’m saying is everybody who’s a party to this (inaudible) sit down and talk about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don’t disagree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No, we’re not. See, now –

MR. CHANDLER: — don’t want to be there, then they have made it to the point where I can’t talk to them about it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: No.

MR. CHANDLER: — so I have to force them to the table –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, no. I don’t disagree with everyone sits down and talks about it.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s what I’m calling — that’s what I called him about. Hello?

MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, that was the message on the machine?

MR. CHANDLER: No. The man — yeah. That was the message on the machine. It said they’d better be there, because on the other times they tried — hello?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The other times I tried to tell them that I needed to talk to them, all I

got was, “Go fuck yourself. We’re not talking to you.” So now I had to let them know and make sure that they know they’d [tape irregularity] they’re gonna get hurt by it, so (inaudible) — I had to make [tape irregularity] if they don’t sit down and talk to me they’re gonna get hurt. They can’t keep telling me to go fuck myself anymore. They have to talk. I want to talk to them. I don’t want to hurt anybody. They’re forcing me to do it. They’re forcing me to do it by refusing to sit down and talk to me. That’s all I ask for. “You sit down and you talk to me [tape irregularity] side of the story, I’ll listen to yours, we all sit down and see how it could be resolved.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So that’s there –

MR. CHANDLER: That’s all I ask for.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Michael can come with all his bodyguards and his lawyer if he wants to. I don’t really care, as long as everything gets aired out. That’s it. And if I walk away dissatisfied, then I’ll take it to the next step. That’s all. If they walk away dissatisfied, they have the right to do that, too. At least [tape irregularity] nothing will get resolved except for the fact that we’ll agree to meet again and talk about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know where it’ll go, but I’m saying is that when people — when you — when people cut off communication totally, you only have two choices: To forget about them, or you get frustrated by their action. I can’t forget about them. I love them. That’s it. I don’t like them. I still love Jordy, but I do not like them because I do not like the people that they’ve become, but I do love them, and because I love them I don’t want to see them [tape irregularity]. That’s why I was willing to talk. I have nothing to gain by talking. If I go through with this, I win big time. There’s no way that I lose. I’ve checked that out inside out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But when you say “winning,” what are you talking about, “winning”?

MR. CHANDLER: I will get everything I want, and they will be totally — they will be destroyed forever. They will be destroyed. June is gonna lose Jordy. She will have no right to ever see him again.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s a fact, Dave.That’s what –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help –

MR. CHANDLER: — Michael the career will be over.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Michael’s career will be over.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And does that help Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: It’s irrelevant to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I mean the bottom line is –

MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line to me is, yes, June is harming him, and Michael is harming him. I can prove that, and I will prove that

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and if they force me to go to court about it, I will [tape irregularity], and I will be granted custody. She will have no rights whatsoever.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Now, I’m willing to sitdown and talk to her. If she wants to tell me to go fuck myself after that, she’s welcome to do it, and then she’ll either be right or wrong. [tape irregularity] I’ll win, maybe I’ll lose. I have the [tape irregularity]

MR. SCHWARTZ: [tape irregularity] for custody?

MR. CHANDLER: Forget the custody thing. It’s gonna go further than that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But what’s the bottom — I mean, what is the bottom line, though?

MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?

MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is, I mean, your responsibility and my responsibility –

MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line (simultaneous, inaudible) what I want?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No –

MR. CHANDLER: Is that what you’re saying?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: — what I want?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, what’s our responsibility in life, really?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you don’t have any right –

MR. SCHWARTZ: The kids is the number one –

MR. CHANDLER: — to discuss that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What?

MR. CHANDLER: You don’t have any right to discuss that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: You’re a negligent father. You don’t have a right, by your own admission before. You told me that you were negligent.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You were negligent to Jordy, and you’ve been negligent to Kelly.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: In a court — in a court of law, June could prove you negligent in one flat fucking second.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So?

MR. CHANDLER: You don’t have any right to all of a sudden decide that you’re going to be a good father or have a conversation about what’s right to do. I’ve never condemned you for it. I know what you’re going through [tape irregularity] that. I understand you have to stay away in order to be a normal human being. I understand that, but no one’s gonna give a shit about that in court. You and I live [tape irregularity] but I’m still living through it every day at my office, and it’s just bad for me too, believe me, and I understand you really well, and I know why [tape irregularity] she’ll make you look bad in one second.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I don’t disagree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, this time it’s gonna be the other way around because she — you see, I love him so much that I’m willing to destroy my own life to protect him –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to do what I think is the best thing to do, not just — it’s not what I think. I’ve gotten professional [tape irregularity] everybody agrees that the only thing that was insane is that I didn’t step in a long –

MR. SCHWARTZ: This is –

MR. CHANDLER: This is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — detrimental to him?

MR. CHANDLER: Extremely harmful to him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Everybody agrees with that. I mean, they — it’s their opinions that have convinced me to not stay away. You know, I’m not confrontational. I’ve got an [tape irregularity] inclination to do what you do, say, “Okay. Go fuck yourself. Go do what you want to do, and, you know, call me some day. I’ll see you then. I got a [tape irregularity],” but I’ve been so convinced by professional opinions that I have been negligent in not stepping in sooner that now it’s made me insane. Now I actually feel [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I do, and I –

MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity] more important than the money, if the kid’s more important that you are, and they’re more important than I am –

MR. SCHWARTZ: And they are.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Then –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But let me ask –

MR. CHANDLER: — by action, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Staying away from the family is not a good way of indicating that you care about your family. It’s a copout, and you –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don’t know if it’s a copout. It might be the –

MR. CHANDLER: My feeling is, Dave, my feeling is that when you have really good communication with somebody, you don’t have to stay away from them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what happens when you –

MR. CHANDLER: — agree, but at least you could talk. You know, as long as you’re talking, nobody’s gonna get hurt. When the talking stops, that’s when people get hurt.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And that’s what happened with you?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, that’s what happened with me. They won’t return my phone calls. June called me once last week.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She told me to go fuck myself. Not in those words.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But you don’t have to say it in those words.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But you know June.

MR. CHANDLER: I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know her thing is that she has to get the last word in.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, she isn’t this time, Dave, and you want to know something –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you put her down for that?

MR. CHANDLER: Do I put her down?

MR. SCHWARTZ: For that?

MR. CHANDLER: I never did before, but when her getting her last word is now going to be harmful to Jordy, yes, I am going to step in, and, again, I’m not telling you this is my — my opinion was formed by –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but this is my perception of [tape irregularity] professional opinions to make sure I wasn’t going off the deep end here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And all I’m telling you is — I’ve always said this to June, and I’ve said this to Monique also, and I’ll say this to anybody I can. No matter what I do, you’re wrong automatically if you don’t sit down and talk about it, because my feeling is [tape irregularity] and you [tape irregularity] talk anything will be worked out. But as soon as you cut off communication you only frustrate the other person. And that makes — and that makes you wrong [tape irregularity] worse that way. You say to them, “I don’t care enough about you to sit down and talk.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t disagree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s all I was asking. I’ve asked them for a month to sit down and talk to me, and I’m very disturbed and very concerned. I want them to hear my concerns.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Let them just tell me why I’m wrong. Let them just tell me that [tape irregularity] detrimental, etcetera. Let them just tell me that. And maybe I’ll disagree with them, and then we’ll take it from there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But at least you can talk about it.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, they will not talk.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) forced me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: What do I do? I mean, in the opinion of these experts, I would be a negligent father if I did not do what I am now doing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: In fact, in their opinion I have been negligent not to put a stop to [tape irregularity] opinion. I happen to agree with them now. I didn’t agree with them at first. Michael [tape irregularity] nice [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So why do you think he’s not nice?

MR. CHANDLER: Why? Because he broke up the family, that’s why.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And he was put on notice from the first sentence out of my mouth was, “Michael, I think you’re really a great guy. You’re welcome into the family, as long as you are who you seem to be, but don’t take anything [tape irregularity].” I mean, that to me was the worst thing anybody could do to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think he did it?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, Dave, if he wasn’t in the picture, everything would be as it was. I’m not –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But that’s sort of –

MR. CHANDLER: — saying that he did it premeditative, and I’m not saying he did it on his own.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m saying that he might have — it might have just evolved that way, and it might have evolved that [tape irregularity] desire, so I’m blaming all three of them, but when I come to that [tape irregularity], it really makes me hate June because the family was inviolate, [tape irregularity] felt about it. There was nothing I had. I mean, you came in this family and made it better. It was great. Someone else comes along and breaks it up. You know how [tape irregularity]. Okay. So do I [tape irregularity] coming into the family who’s going to do good things for the family.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: Michael divided and conquered, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: He what?

MR. CHANDLER: He divided and conquered.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: He did, Dave. He did.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh –

MR. CHANDLER: June and I agreed on the issue, whether it was her side or my side. If we both thought the same way [tape irregularity] any frustration. The fact is we both do not think the same way, and he — and I sincerely believe that he either consciously [tape irregularity] manipulated that. I think he consciously manipulated that because Michael Jackson [tape irregularity] the smartest streetwise people –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — that I’ve ever met, and if you sit down and have any long conversations with him, [tape irregularity] that guy is extremely bright.

MR. SCHWARTZ: So is that good or bad?

MR. CHANDLER: That he’s bright?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I think that if you use it for bad then you’re evil.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, do you think he’s sensitive?

MR. CHANDLER: Do I what?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know him a lot better than I know him. I don’t know him. I mean, I’ve talked to him a couple times, but –

MR. CHANDLER: I thought I knew him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think he’s sensitive?

MR. CHANDLER: I think he’s totally insensitive. I think he’s sensitive — I think he’s an extremely selfish person.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that he knows what was going on?

MR. CHANDLER: Of course he knows that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, this is the bottom line. The bottom line is I abandoned the family.

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is I abandoned the family. That’s the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) line –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — so this is –

MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line is — the bottom line is he took Jordy out of the family with June’s help.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, yes and no, but, I mean, there’s a lot of things, and I — I mean, you’re bright, you’re sensitive –

MR. CHANDLER: Why don’t I put it this way, Dave. If you were there all the time, living in that house –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn’t have happened.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s right. It wouldn’t have even had a chance to happen.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn’t have happened, and I — it’s all my fault.

MR. CHANDLER: No, it isn’t all your fault.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It is definitely a hundred percent my fault.

MR. CHANDLER: I’ll tell you what. Whenever you have an argument with somebody, when I have an argument with Monique, when you have an argument with June, if I have an argument with you, it’s rarely one sided. There’s almost — you know, there’s always two sides to every –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. There’s ten sides to every –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) you can’t tell me, realistically, that June didn’t frustrate the hell out of you so many times that you finally left the house just to be sane, just to be alone and come back to your own sanity to get anyplace with her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I agree with that completely, but the only thing is what — see, I haven’t only done it with June. I do it in every other relationship and in my work relationships.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So it’s my hang-up.

MR. CHANDLER: — problem with that, then that problem has ultimately ended up bringing the family to this point. But you’re not solely to blame for it. It doesn’t mean that June was still — I didn’t do anything that — they didn’t have the right to take my kid away from me, to break up the family.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well – I’m in my garage. Can I call you back from the house?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: At the same number?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: If I don’t call you back in five minutes it means it’s off my pager. Call me at the house.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m in the garage right now.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Bye.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.

CONVERSATION  between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi.

MR. CHANDLER: Hi. I’m on a cordless phone, so let’s not use –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t you have a regular phone?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, but it’s in the kitchen, and I don’t want to go upstairs.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m still wasted, Man.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Not as tired as me. Oh, you’re probably as tired as me.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I mean, we just don’t — we don’t have to mention any names.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. If we could do this: If — I’m telling you, and you know I — just talking it out, I mean, I have a definite communication problem in my — I mean, what happens is when I get frustrated or I — I mean, I just withdraw. I’ve been doing it forever. I mean, I’ve done it forever with everything, and it works, you know, for — it works for me. I mean because I get through it and it just works and then I’m back and it’s no –

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, except do you want to know something? That can also be — you think that that’s the best way to do something, but if you look at it closely, I mean, I’ve always been that way too. Nothing’s really worked (inaudible) confrontation, and nothing’s as big a deal as it seems [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — except — and so you back off, and everything sort of takes care of itself –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, in time.

MR. CHANDLER: — except in this time my looking the other way and my failing to deal with the issues have harmed my son greatly. I believe that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, are you talking about harmed him in the relationship with you?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s for sure.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But –

MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) forever.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I think he’s frustrated about me and maybe taking it out on you.

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because — no. He has said a few things in the past. You know, I’ve disappeared for, you know, long periods of time.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you have.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. And he has mentioned — you know, he’s a real sensitive kid –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you take total blame for it? It’s never one person’s fault.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Now I’m telling you it’s my fault. I know it’s my fault, and –

MR. CHANDLER: You see –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — whatever –

MR. CHANDLER: — you think by doing that you might be — you might be doing a lot of harm.

How many times can an [tape irregularity] — when there’s two human beings involved, there’s two sides to the story. I mean, it’s automatic. Two people could witness the same story in two different ways. What I’m saying is that I was married to June. I’ve known June since –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. For a long time.

MR. CHANDLER: — ‘ or something like that, so what I’m saying is that I know her really well. I think I do. Maybe I don’t. I guess I don’t because I suddenly saw a part of her — a side of her which I really hate.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re into survival.

MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?

MR. SCHWARTZ: They’re into survival –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) are you talking about? What do you mean “survival”? Because why? What makes it — what do you mean?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, they don’t know what’s going on. I have made them — June’s real macho –

MR. CHANDLER: That’s exactly right.

MR. SCHWARTZ: — on the surface, and underneath she’s just insecure like all of us. Everyone is.

MR. CHANDLER: Dave –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Everyone’s insecure. JFK was insecure. Everyone is.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Let’s say they are.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Now, I haven’t really analyzed this until we’re just talking right now.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I put the blame on me a hundred percent.

MR. CHANDLER: You put the blame on you –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely a hundred percent.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m sorry. I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely.

MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way, okay? You put all of — you put the three of them on the stand (simultaneous, inaudible) –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — any questions, and they will all be asked questions, and they will all have psychological examinations –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) given lie detector tests.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to tell you what. There is no excuse in law for June having done what she does. Despite the fact that you might say it’s your fault –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — whatever you say is going to [tape irregularity] capable of making her own decisions –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she made those decisions to the harm of her son, despite the fact that, yeah, maybe she’s insecure, maybe she’s macho on the surface, and maybe you fucked her over. Maybe you did. Maybe you didn’t.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s gonna give a shit about that. I know what you’re saying.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And I agree with you, and I think that had you two had a really good [tape irregularity], maybe she wouldn’t have had to do what she did.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And I know what you’re saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his life — he could be fucked up for the rest of his life [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: You gotta tell me why you think he’s being screwed up.

MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but what — I don’t know what evidence. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you’ll see.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why can’t you tell me? I swear –

MR. CHANDLER: You show up in court and you’ll see it on the big fucking screen –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But what –

MR. CHANDLER: — and then you’ll know what I’m talking about.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And you’ll hear in on tape recordings.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You’ll hear it all. You’ll see it all, just like I have.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It cost me thousands, tens of thousands of dollars –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to get the information I got, and I — you know I don’t have that kind of money –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I spent it, and I’m willing to spend more, and I’m willing –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to go down financially to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s going to help Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Dave, Jordy’s — I believe that Jordy’s already irreparably harmed.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s my true belief.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that he’s fucking him?

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know. I have no idea.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But harmed in — in just been spoiled?

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Just tell me –

MR. CHANDLER: You know, you gotta forgive me for one thing, but I have been told by my lawyer that if I say one thing to anybody –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: — don’t bother calling him again. He said this case is so open [tape irregularity] “You open your mouth and you blow it,” he said, “just don’t come back to me.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I respect that. Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Not that I don’t trust you or anything –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. I respect it.

MR. CHANDLER: You have a vested interest in it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you this, by the way: What harm would it be to you, what harm would it be to your relationship to June, if Michael wasn’t around anymore? You say that you [tape irregularity] your fault. You say that you made her insecure.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait.

MR. CHANDLER: So if he wasn’t around anymore –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

MR. CHANDLER: — what do you think she’s going to do? She’s going to come back to you. She doesn’t need you anymore. She doesn’t even want you around anymore. She’s told me and she’s told you — I’m sure she’s told you that if [tape irregularity] Michael she’ll get rid of you. She’s told me that. She means it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: She means –

MR. SCHWARTZ: The only thing I told you before is I told her I didn’t want him buying her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And then when he did buy her things and she told me, I got pissed off at her. And that’s it, and that’s really the whole thing. That’s all we ever talked about.

MR. CHANDLER: How do you feel about her going off on tour with him? You told me when you were there the other day that everybody’s been calling you saying “Your wife’s been [tape irregularity]” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It does [tape irregularity] –

MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you something, by the way. That’s the best thing that could happen to him, is that people think he’s interested in June.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The fact is, he has no interest in her whatsoever. The fact is he doesn’t even care about her. He doesn’t even like her. He’s [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think he likes her?

MR. CHANDLER: I know he doesn’t. He told me he doesn’t. He can’t stand her. He told me that when –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Huh! He can’t stand her?

MR. CHANDLER: No. He told me that when he was in my house.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. At that point he liked us better than — Jordy too. Jordy’s the same as Michael. It was a simple divide and conquer. They felt us both out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They saw who was going  to let them do what they wanted to do, and then they made their choice.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And until I had a talk with Jordy one day at [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — they were gonna come live with me. They were gonna pack up, leave June’s house, and come here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s what they were going to do, because they were getting more resistance from her than they were getting from me. You cannot tell this stuff — you cannot — I’m confiding in you, okay, Dave?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Right? That’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.

MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s to know this conversation –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) except you and me; is that right?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: You promise me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I promise you.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What I’m telling  you is that Jordy and Michael are users.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They had — they were gonna — they had their own relationship.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They want to carry it out the way they want to carry it out. They don’t want anybody getting in the way [tape irregularity] — least resistance, and that’s the way they’re going. They simply divided and conquered, and June went along with it. And she was wrong because she did it to the detriment of Jordy.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is not old enough to make these kind of [tape irregularity] that he’s making.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But is that a huge life decision?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, you bet it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you — were you — let me ask you this: Did you ever pull away from your parents when you were a teenager?

MR. CHANDLER: I hated my parents.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think Jordy hates you?

MR. CHANDLER: If he doesn’t, he’s gonna hate me tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want that?

MR. CHANDLER: It doesn’t matter what I want.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why would you want him to hate you, and why would you want to put him through that –

MR. CHANDLER: Because all I care about is what happens to him in the long run.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the long run, is that going to be healthy in the long run?

MR. CHANDLER: According to the experts?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Absolutely.

According to the experts, if it goes on the way it is, he’s doomed. He has no chance of ever being a happy, healthy, normal human being, no

MR. SCHWARTZ: So what happens if you force him not to see him?

MR. CHANDLER: Not to see Michael?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s saying for sure what will happen. Most people’s feeling is that he’s gonna go on and hate me for a long time and then some day when he gets older he’ll thank me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you think he hates you now?

MR. CHANDLER: I said I think he’ll — I said he may or may not hate me now –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but he’ll definitely hate me tomorrow. He’ll hate me, why? Because I’m taking Michael away from him. That’s why.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And that’s a –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So you really think Michael’s bad for him?

MR. CHANDLER: I know Michael’s bad for him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You know how I know that? Why would somebody, Dave — if you tell me this, think of this logically. What reason would he want us split up — [tape irregularity] would he want me out of the way? What would be the reason, unless he has something to hide?

MR. SCHWARTZ: But –

MR. CHANDLER: I know what he has to hide. I happen to know what it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But I can’t tell you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m just asking you in terms of logic. You know me. I’m not — I’m a pretty liberal guy.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t get in anybody’s way, okay? So, I mean, what reason would he want me out of the way to such an extent that neither one of them will take my phone calls, neither one of them will talk to me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I think Jordy’s taken my route of just withdrawing.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, one of the lessons he’s gonna learn is that that route doesn’t work. See, you just learned that lesson yourself. By you withdrawing, as you said in your own words, you’re the cause of this whole problem.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I think I am.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. So that’s what withdrawal does for you. My approach to the whole thing is that the one person — the person who doesn’t talk is the one who’s wrong, period –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — no matter what the action was, I believe everything is preventable, every bad action that anybody takes is — unless you’re truly pathologic –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — is probably preventable if you just found somebody who would sit [tape irregularity] you know what? They don’t even have to talk back and give you [tape irregularity] if you get it out, everything will be okay, you know, but that’s my approach. My approach is that the people who don’t talk are the ones who are wrong.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And I agree with that, totally.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you’re wrong.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. I –

MR. CHANDLER: You (inaudible) –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I just said I am wrong, but here is the other — I mean, the thing is Jordy’s  years old. I’m talking about adults. I mean, I don’t know if he — I mean, you’re his dad. You’re his role model.

MR. CHANDLER: No, I’m not his role model.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, you are, definitely –

MR. CHANDLER: Not anymore.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You are, positively, in the long run, you’re his role model.

MR. CHANDLER: There is no — there isn’t gonna be a long run if things went on like this. Don’t you see? As long as I go along with whatever they want to do –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — everything’s okay. As soon as I say you can’t [tape irregularity] anybody –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you go through that?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I went through that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And how old were you?

MR. CHANDLER: Why do you — oh, with my parents?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: No, I didn’t go through that with my parents. I never had any outside influence on me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — was more powerful than my parents were.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, Michael is very seductive, without even trying.

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, he’s trying, believe me. He just looks like he’s not trying because he’s so damn good at it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, it’s –

MR. CHANDLER: Dave, he fooled me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I’ll tell you that. He fooled me, for a while.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think this is –

MR. CHANDLER: There’s no reason why they would have to cut me out unless they — unless they need me to be away so they can do certain things which I don’t think are good to be doing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I — and not only that, but I don’t even have anything to say about it, okay? [tape irregularity] I think what they’re doing and it isn’t bad, and so maybe I’m wrong –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but I’m not even getting a chance to express that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I think that’s all — I think it’s all fair because –

MR. CHANDLER: I had a good communication with Michael.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: We were friends, you know. I liked him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I respected him and everything else for what he is, you know. There was no reason why he had to stop calling me. He could have called me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: In fact, Dave, I — you ask Jordy. I sat in the room one day, and I talked to Michael and told him exactly what I want out of this whole relationship, what I want [tape irregularity], okay, so he wouldn’t have to figure me out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And one of things I said is we always have to be able to talk to each other.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s the rule, okay, because I know that as soon as you stop talking weird things start going on and people [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Imaginations take over.

MR. CHANDLER: Imagination will just kill you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: It causes all kinds of problems, and so, I mean –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, can you do this –

MR. CHANDLER: Do you think you — look. Do you know what it’s like? You go out with — listen. I — just that old expression, you know. It came from some movie. How does it go? “Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean somebody isn’t [tape irregularity].” You know that expression?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What it really means is that you may think I’m crazy –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) I’m thinking is actually right, but what I’m saying to you is that I’ve had every single girl — and I am not kidding you — every [tape irregularity] ever gone out with, from the very first girl to the very last, has heated on me, and I have never cheated on anybody.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I would never. Now, if I wanted to, based on that history, I could be so fucking paranoid about girls, I would never –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — be able to [tape irregularity] relationship. I wouldn’t be able to [tape irregularity] was like, I couldn’t have a family. I’d be a fucking raving lunatic. Okay?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But what’s my point? My point is that the only thing that keeps me from getting that way is that I can talk about it and be reassured [tape irregularity] on it in my imagination — I mean, my wife’s not home tonight.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She’s gonna be at a meeting until : o’clock in the morning.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: Right? This has happened many times.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She’s going to go away to Cannes Film Festival next year –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — right? Do you know what that’s like?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That Film Festival’s a fucking sex party.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Next year, without me, okay? Now, if I didn’t have a chance to talk to her about my fears, my [tape irregularity],  probably shoot her, or I’d divorce her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I’m not saying her as an individual. Wouldn’t matter who — I could be married to Mother Teresa and I’d have the same feeling. It’s just because of what [tape irregularity] that I’ve been — my finger’s been stuck in the electric socket so much that I don’t want to get stuck in there again, so I keep — and girls do that to me, you know? They keep fucking me up, so –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So what was –

MR. CHANDLER: — bothers me. I might be totally irrational –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but you want to know why I’m not crazy about it at all and I have a great relationship and I trust her and everything is fine?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because she’ll sit down and she’ll talk to me about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And she’s wildly in love with you.

MR. CHANDLER: She tells me she is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: She is.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, it’s very obvious.

MR. CHANDLER: And you want to know what I told her? I told her this. I said June — “Monique,” I said, “if you ever want to sleep with somebody else or if you don’t love me anymore, if you come to me and you tell me that [tape irregularity] out of the house and fuck his brains out, I’ll love you forever, I’ll support you and wish you well. But if it’s the other way around, you fuck him first and then you [tape irregularity], I’ll kill you, period.” I said, “Those are the rules. If you want to stay with me, you gotta understand that’s the only way I can survive. That’s how I live.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s all comes — that’s what really relationships –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, trust is real important.

MR. CHANDLER: When you get down to relationships like we — like really intimate ones, okay?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Like you and I. I trust you with my life.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And I know you trust me too.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? And with Monique, I said, “That’s all I’m after.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: What does she say?

MR. CHANDLER: She said, “I understand. That’s fine.” She said, “It’ll never happen. I don’t know why you’re bringing it up, but if you’re bringing it up, I won’t do it. Trust me. It won’t happen.” I said, “Okay. I’m just — I’m telling you now ahead of time” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s good communication.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, I’m not being embarrassed by it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: — I’m not keeping it inside. I want to have a good marriage and a good relationship

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I know this is one issue that bothers me, no matter who that girl would be.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? I’m not –

MR. SCHWARTZ: In any –

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) personal against her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s just with me. It’s my problem, and so I’m letting her know that I have a problem. I’m not hiding anything. I’d not trying to be macho cool dude about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And so if I wasn’t able to talk to her, this marriage would have been over a long time ago.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t we learn like that?

MR. CHANDLER: Because of my imagination, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but don’t we learn through experiences –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) want to know what I really think? I really think most people don’t learn. I think at some point in our lives we develop behavior patterns, and even if we know that they’re wrong we just can’t break them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You know –

MR. CHANDLER: Most people can’t change their behaviors.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) they are at a certain –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes and no, but I think you get –

MR. CHANDLER: Look at you. Are you going to change now because of what happened here?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, interesting –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) be different? Is your marriage going to be better? Are you going to — you know, you guys have no right to be married. I told June that myself many times. She would call me all the time and say, “Did Dave call Kelly? Did Dave call Jordy?” No. What kind of fucking marriage do you guys have? Why don’t you guys just split up so he could see his kids, at least –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You know, if he doesn’t want to come over to the house because of you, then get divorced so he could see his kids. There’s nothing wrong with that. You know, you might be better friends. She and I were better friends when we [tape irregularity], and what I’m saying to her is that if there’s no — if there’s no communication, there’s no sense in being together with anybody, whether it’s a marriage or a friendship or a business relationship. If you cannot sit down and talk [tape irregularity] ultimately gonna destruct, and that’s what happened here. They shut me out from the most important thing in my life. In fact, I don’t have a life. I don’t want to have a life [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: I understand it, too, but I gotta tell you, in just talking to you this

time, see, Jordy’s copying me.

MR. CHANDLER: Well –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, he’s positively copying me. I mean, he’s been with both of us since — I mean, I’ve had him since he’s — almost as long as you have.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s right.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And he’s –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) had him as long as he’s been cognizant of the fact of who’s around him –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, so –

MR. CHANDLER: — learned a lot from you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and one of the things he learned, probably, was just to withdraw, because I do it, but, you know, I’m not chastising myself for it. I’m just looking at it objectively. I mean, realistically. I mean, I would say –

MR. CHANDLER: You haven’t (inaudible) and in some way it’s resonated throughout the family –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and partly been the cause of all this happening.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, but I mean he’s, you know, he’s learned a lot of good things from me.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I’m sure he –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, I mean, everyone’s not perfect.

MR. CHANDLER: No. Everyone’s not.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I think –

MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) expect everyone to be, but you gotta expect people that claim to love you to communicate with you because if there’s communication there’s nothing. What’s the sense of having your relationship? People don’t even care enough about you to — you tell them — I actually told June how much I was hurting. I said –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — “I’m hurting, June. I’m crying every day. I’m dying.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re going through every –

MR. CHANDLER: Do you know what she said to me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: What?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s just too bad. Fuck that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but you can’t — I mean, you know June.

MR. CHANDLER: I can’t make excuses for June.

MR. SCHWARTZ: There’s no way to make — there’s nothing to make an excuse. I mean, we all have our good points and our bad points, and we all have things that –

MR. CHANDLER: I think, you know, her bad points [tape irregularity] gone too far. I really do.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I think you gotta look at the overall picture. I mean, now we’re talking –

MR. CHANDLER: I am looking at — I’m looking at Jordy’s picture. That’s the only picture I’m looking at. I — June’s not part of it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But do you think that –

MR. CHANDLER: I know that after tomorrow — in fact, not even after tomorrow. It’s already happened. I don’t ever want anything to do with June anymore because June is not part of my family. In my mind, she’s died. I don’t ever want to talk to her again. [tape irregularity] sitting on the stand being totally humiliated or at the end of a shotgun. That’s the only way I want to see June now. She’s gotta [tape irregularity] do this to kid. Again, it’s not right. Can do it to me. Can’t do it to my kid. It’s not right.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that whatever’s happening, if you think it’s bad for him, she’s done, you know, out of malice?

MR. CHANDLER: You want to know something? You don’t even have to ask me. You could — as you said before, you want to sit down and talk to the people I spoke to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you’re going to have a chance to do that if you want to. You go and ask the experts –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and you won’t have to ask. They will be there anyway. There’s not one person in this world [tape irregularity] can’t find a person –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — disagree with me. I’m the one that disagreed with — I didn’t even want to know about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I kept saying, “No, this is okay. There’s nothing wrong. This is great.” It took experts to convince me [tape irregularity] that by not taking action –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — my son was going to be irreparably damaged for the rest of his life [tape irregularity]. That was what I heard.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because his friend is older, or because of all the seduction?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, age in and of itself is not a harmful thing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But it could have been used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is using his age and experience and his money and his power to great advantage to Jordy. The problem is he’s also harming him, greatly harming him, for his own selfish reasons. He’s not the altruistic, kind human being that he appears to be.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) selfish motives here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, harming Jordy because it’s taken him out of reality?

MR. CHANDLER: It’s not so much really what he’s taken him out of. It’s what he’s brought him into.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t mean to be devious. I just can’t be –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You can’t tell me.

MR. CHANDLER: — specific about it, but I tell you that, again, it all comes down to one thing. They don’t want to talk to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Jordy — yeah, he’s 13 years old. He’s only [tape irregularity], hoping that the problem will go away by itself, but June’s old enough to know better. June’s the one that’s frustrated me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, this is the deal: I talked to Jordy about it today, about, you know, his not contacting you and not calling you on Father’s Day and not sending you anything. He’s confused June — and this is the truth and from him. June did everything to get him to send you a card, to call and everything. He’s just frustrated, you know, and I don’t know about what or — you know, it’s just like he’s scared or doesn’t know what to do or –

MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible).

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: June didn’t do a thing to have him call me or send me a card by her own admission to me last time. She didn’t give a shit, is what she told me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but I don’t believe that because, I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) told me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because, I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: With June and — I talked to them today.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, she’s lying to you, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but would Jordy lie?

MR. CHANDLER: Now they’re scared shit.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. Would Jordy — no, because they don’t know anything about it. I didn’t even tell them that I had talked to you this morning, okay?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) them know you heard the message.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And what are you going there all of a sudden? You haven’t been there –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Last night’s the first night I’ve been there.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. By accident?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, it’s Kelly’s birthday. I mean, you know, I got — it’s tough for me too. It’s not easy. I mean, you don’t really know what’s going on with me, but, I mean, it’s very, very, very difficult times for me.

MR. CHANDLER: So what?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Very.

MR. CHANDLER: So what you’re saying is that because of your problem you sacrifice the kids.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I did it –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) money all during –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I just — I fucked up, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you fucked up.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) I’m not fucking up –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — when you’re trying to survive –

MR. CHANDLER: Hey, Dave, it doesn’t matter. You want to know something? When my father was dying of cancer –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and he had — and he got in a car crash that crushed his leg and his spinal cord –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — at the same time and he was in incredible pain –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I used to talk to him about it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and he would say, “You know what?” I’d say, “Why don’t you — you never talk — you never talk about it, you never complain to anybody.” He said, “You know what? Because everybody’s got their own problems, and nobody’s gonna think that my problem’s any worse than their problem.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And so as bad as your problem is [tape irregularity] it may not be on the same scale, but emotionally, financially, psychologically, it’s devastating me as much as [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: And I accept that.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I — let me –

MR. CHANDLER: I’m telling you this: That as bad as my life is, I’m willing to let it get a lot worse –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and sacrifice whatever it is — and I don’t even consider it a sacrifice — give up whatever it is so that my son won’t be damaged. You’re not willing to do that. You fall apart just to save one of your kids [tape irregularity] away from my practice, from my family, from my wife, from Cody, from everybody else, do whatever I have to do –

MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that’ll save Jordy? I mean, don’t you think there’s a happy medium?

MR. CHANDLER: No. We’re not gonna save him. June’s not gonna save him. Who’s gonna save him? Gotta be me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you really think he has –

MR. CHANDLER: — one.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think it’s just gonna run its course?

MR. CHANDLER: Dave . . .

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know more than I know, so I’m at a disadvantage.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, I will tell you without question. It’s gone way too far.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is never going to be the same person he was.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s never — by the time it runs its course –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if it does, he will be so damaged he’ll never recover –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s not my opinion. I mean, I happen to be believe it now because my eyes have been opened –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but I’m not the one that first [tape irregularity], so what I’m saying to you is that I’m acting because [tape irregularity] I’m going to cause him great harm, and you tell me if maybe it’s gonna cause him harm right now. I think he’ll be harmed much greater if I do nothing, and besides now I’m convinced that if I do nothing I’m going to be, from doing nothing, causing him harm, and I couldn’t –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you discuss that with Monique?

MR. CHANDLER: Not really.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t want her involved. I mean, she would just like the whole thing to go away.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But we’ve had a nice little relationship and a great new marriage and a nice little family –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and everything’s terrific over here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, I’ve tried to explain to Cody why his brother doesn’t call him and he doesn’t come over here. You know [tape irregularity] whole world, and I’m not exaggerating.

MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) Jordy.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. You ask Monique when you speak to her if he doesn’t bring it up every conversation –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) out during the day. Cody spent about two weeks crying his eyes out. He’d have nightmares about Jordy. He’d get up in the middle of the night and come crying into our bed. I’d listen to him talk, and I would break down –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I couldn’t even — I mean, I couldn’t even — I couldn’t — I didn’t know what to say to him, you know? What can you say?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It was the saddest thing I [tape irregularity]. I mean, how do you do that?  years old. There’s no — you know, and a [tape irregularity] just come into it? I ask you this: If Michael Jackson were just some -year-old person, would this be happening? No. He’s got power, he’s got money, he’s got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening [tape irregularity] they’ve been seduced away from the family by power and by money.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And by this guy’s image.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He could be the same person without the power and the money, and they wouldn’t even be talking to him. You know it and I know it. So for power and money and his image, June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because I’ve sat down and talked to him, and I’ve told him long before it came down to going this far –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — that Cody was really hysterical about him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And what does he say?

MR. CHANDLER: He said that he would, you know, he would call him and he’d talk to him and stuff, and he tried, you know.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: As time went on, the times between when he did call or see Cody got longer and longer and longer and longer until [tape irregularity] anymore. And you know what? He would do the same thing to Kelly. Kelly just happens to have to come along because June has to happen to come along –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but if [tape irregularity] now, June wouldn’t be in the picture and neither would Kelly, any more than I am.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They would have dumped her a long time ago. They even told me [tape irregularity]. They can’t stand her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Jordy can’t stand June?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Neither one of them like her. They don’t like anybody but each other.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They don’t like you, and they don’t like me and they don’t like her. They don’t want anybody coming between them. [tape irregularity] got to be liminated. You go ahead and you see — you tell June. You tell June to start saying “No” to everything they want –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and see what happens. The only reason she’s there is because she says “Yes” [tape irregularity] favorite as long as I was saying “Yes.” Trust me. I don’t know what’s happened to Jordy except he doesn’t care, literally does not care, if he would ever see him again. He hopes I would go away and not bother him. That’s [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I know that’s not true.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) Michael.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know that’s not true.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m telling you. But that doesn’t matter, you know. I’m not taking it personally. I’m just trying to do what I have been led to believe is the right action to take so that he’s not harmed. I mean, Unfortunately, June and [tape irregularity] because in order to protect Jordy certain things are gonna have to come out, and those two are not going to have any defense against it whatsoever. They’re just going to be [tape irregularity] violently destroyed.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that it helps Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, it’ll help Jordy because he won’t — he’ll never see Michael again. That’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that –

MR. CHANDLER: And he’s probably never gonna see June again if I have to go through with this.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think –

MR. CHANDLER: Unless I’d let him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that would affect him?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That he was — that this was done by force?

MR. CHANDLER: You mean that Michael did this to him?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No, that you, like, are forcing him not to see someone or take him away from his mom?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I am gonna force him not to see –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but do you think that’s the right way to do it?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I’ve been led to believe that it’s the right thing to do. In fact, it’s the right thing to do because how do you know? You don’t know what –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t have a clue.

MR. CHANDLER: Suppose you were to find out what they’re doing and you were to agree with me that these things that they’re doing are harmful to Jordy or –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’d like to know.

MR. CHANDLER: — be harmful.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, in my wildest imagination I can’t figure out what it is.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. But suppose –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Unless it’s sex, and I don’t know, you know.

MR. CHANDLER: Suppose that you were to find out that there were things going on that you believed were harmful to him? Would you say to me, “Hey, look. You know, I got things to do here [tape irregularity], but, you know, time will go by and everything will be okay”? I mean, that’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. What I would do — I’m not disagreeing with you.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, they won’t talk to me about those things. They won’t talk to me about anything.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Even about what you think they’re doing or about what you know they’re doing?

MR. CHANDLER: What I know they’re doing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I’ve tried to talk to Jordy. Jordy — Jordy does not talk to me. This stopped long before I told him he couldn’t [tape irregularity]. He just does not talk to me anymore. In fact, when he talks to Michael on the telephone, he goes in another room because I’m not allowed to hear what they’re talking about except I taped [tape irregularity] they’re talking about. Ha ha ha. Anyway, all I’m saying is that [tape irregularity] that I would be negligent to continue to do nothing [tape irregularity] gonna be because nobody really knows how Jordy will be affected one way or the other. I know for a fact that he’s going to be affected adversely if I do nothing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So I have nothing to lose.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Would you do me a big favor?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Could you and I go to one of these shrinks and talk it over?

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not?

MR. CHANDLER: Because it’s too late, after : tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why not? Why couldn’t we go talk it over –

MR. CHANDLER: Because the thing’s already — the thing has already been set in motion.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s happening at :. : tomorrow –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — it’s out of my hands. I do nothing else again –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — after : tomorrow.

It’s all been automatically set in motion.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not even in contact anymore –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — with this person. This thing is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you this, then.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) :, unless I call in –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and tell him not to do it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: So why don’t you call and say not to do it?

MR. CHANDLER: Because I’m not going to.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why wouldn’t you go with me? I mean, we trust each other. We respect each other. Why couldn’t you go with me and we’d decide together?

MR. CHANDLER: Because I don’t want to talk to you about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: I want to talk to June and Jordy and Michael –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but why can’t you talk to me? I mean, I’m — I could be very –

MR. CHANDLER: — be there tomorrow and –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: You can be there at the meeting tomorrow, and you can get a chance to talk to him –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if you want to, but if they don’t say, “Well, there’s not going to be a meeting” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: — I want to talk to them. I don’t want to talk to you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because you have had your head buried in Rent A Wreck, and you have no idea what’s going on –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and just because you all of a sudden decide to have some interest in [tape irregularity] I don’t [tape irregularity] going on. It will take you weeks to catch up –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you’ll never know what’s going on by explanation.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You’d have to have lived it. You’d have to have witnessed it. Myself would never have believed it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if I didn’t live through it, see it and hear it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I would not have believed it. And that’s all. I cannot take this [tape irregularity] over to you because that’s the only way you’re gonna know it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The evidence is already locked up in a safe place –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and it’s gonna come out only [tape irregularity] let it come out, and that’s it. If they don’t talk to me tomorrow, out it comes.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Well, but let me ask you this- –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) Michael Jackson — Michael Jackson’s career, Dave. This man is gonna be humiliated beyond belief. You’ll not believe it. He will not believe what’s going to happen to him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Beyond his worst nightmares. [tape irregularity] not sell one more record.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s for sure. And I mean I’m [tape irregularity] it just has to happen in order to get — to keep [tape irregularity] and it doesn’t have to happen if they show up tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But if they don’t show up — and I’ve made it very clear — I’ve tried to make it really clear on that answering machine, “This is the last chance to talk. If you talk, we have a chance. If we don’t talk, it’s all over.” It’s out of my hands. I mean, what else can I do?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t — you know, I don’t –

MR. CHANDLER: What’s the disadvantage to you if Michael Jackson’s destroyed and out of the family? What good is he doing you?

MR. SCHWARTZ: What harms it — well, it has nothing to — I’m only thinking of Jordy.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) come over to talk to you, you seemed pretty damned upset that everybody was telling you that Michael Jackson has taken your family away from you. You even went so far as to tell me you couldn’t get bank loans because of that [tape irregularity] turn around completely  degrees.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s not turning around .

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) for Michael Jackson.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell you what I’m concerned about.

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’m concerned about Jordy.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you were concerned about Jordy, you should have been around a long time ago, because I have been.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Where have you been?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I’ve been there plenty for him. I mean, in the  years I’ve been there a lot.

MR. CHANDLER: I agree –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) day –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say this: So I made a few mistakes, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Why –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I can’t condemn myself for it.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, why all of a sudden do you not want to be there?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Did I not want to be there?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I’ve been in a survival mode.

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And, you know –

MR. CHANDLER: The fact of the matter is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You know, you do what you have to do, and sometimes you make the wrong move, and sometimes your emotions make you do it, and sometimes it’s just — it’s the way that you face it. Sometimes you –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) survival mode, and so you’re doing what you’re doing, and I’m not in a survival mode. I’m trying for him to survive –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what I –

MR. CHANDLER: — doing what I think –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell you what. I would die for that kid. I mean, I have — you don’t know what I’ve done for that kid.

MR. CHANDLER: Easy to say that, Dave, but when you tell me you’re in a survival mode so you can’t pay attention to your children, it doesn’t jive with “I would die for that kid.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. I’m ashamed of that. I’m not proud of that, but when you –

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, how do you — I mean, which of those two statements should I choose to believe, because they’re both entirely opposite each other?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: “I would die for that kid” or “I’m” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: If I had –

MR. CHANDLER: — “in a survival mode and I” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I would do anything for Jordy. I would lose everything. I would die for Jordy. That’s the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: Then why don’t you just back me up right now and let’s get rid of Michael Jackson.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t know the facts.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, when you know –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, I don’t –

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. When you know the facts, when you see the facts come out, then you’ll make a decision at that point.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. That’s fair.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, that’s more than fair, but this — let me –

MR. CHANDLER: It’s unfortunately gonna be too late, then, and nothing’s gonna matter at that point.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: Because the fact is so fucking overwhelming –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

MR. CHANDLER: — that everybody’s going to be destroyed in the process. The facts themselves are gonna — once this thing starts rolling –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — the facts themselves are gonna overwhelm. It’s gonna be bigger than all of us put together, and the whole thing’s just gonna crash down on everybody and destroy everybody in its sight. That’s [tape irregularity] humiliating, believe me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And is that good?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. It’s great.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: Great, because –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, is that how you’re –

MR. CHANDLER: Because June and Jordy and Michael –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — have forced me to take it to the extreme –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to get their attention. How pitiful, pitifuckingful they are to have done that. I’ve tried to get their attention –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I’ve cried on the phone, I’ve talked on the phone –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I have begged on the phone, and all I get back is, “Go fuck yourself” on the phone, and so now I’m still trying to get their attention until : tomorrow for their [tape irregularity], and I will know that even having gone this far they won’t talk to me, then I know that I’m absolutely right in doing what I’m doing because they have left me no other [tape irregularity]. I am not allowed to talk to [tape irregularity], and so since they’re sending me that message and telling me that –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — they leave me no choice. They will not let me say to them, “This is what’s bothering me, and this is what I’d like to do about it. What do you think?” They’re saying, “We don’t care what you have to think — say about [tape irregularity].”

MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean by no communication?

MR. CHANDLER: Am I supposed to just bury my head? No. Not when my kid’s involved.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I can’t. So it’s their fault. Everything’s their fault, one hundred percent, and the reason it’s their fault [tape irregularity] try to communicate, and they have time after time frustrated my attempts to talk by telling me, “Go fuck yourself.” And when you do that to somebody, consistently, you drive them to do something [tape irregularity]. I’m not an evil person. I don’t want to do this.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s their fault because they won’t talk. They have one more chance. I’ve told them this. That’s why I left that message. The message was very harsh [tape irregularity] and it was very true, and it was to let them know that I am not kidding around.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m begging them. That message was begging, one more time –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to sit down and talk and saying basically, “I don’t want to hurt you, but you’re not leaving me any choice.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, if they choose to ignore it, for whatever their motives — June doesn’t ignore things for the same — she doesn’t bury her head in the sand and make believe it’s gonna go away.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: June usually will call you up and say, “Go fuck yourself and drop dead” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she’ll get violent and all that, maybe even punch you in the face.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, that’s not so bad.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s right, and yet she’s not calling me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — she’s not doing anything. She’s not talking either. So Michael’s not talking either. The three of them, completely different personalities –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — handle situations in three completely different ways, and yet none of the three of them is calling me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You can tell me that Jordy’s burying his head in the sand and that’s his reaction [tape irregularity]. What’s the other two excuses? I don’t know. They won’t even tell me what their excuse for not talking to me is. I don’t even — I can’t make an excuse for –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael, I can’t tell you. June, she doesn’t know what’s going on.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, of course she doesn’t know what’s going on. She wouldn’t let me tell her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But she doesn’t going on — know what’s going on –

MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once what my thoughts were about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And she said, “Go fuck yourself,” basically.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Does this –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) she said — I do remember ’cause I wrote it on a piece of paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It shocked me so much coming from her mouth that I actually wrote it down, verbatim, in quotes.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That this human being would say something like that about her own kid, and so now that I know that she feels that way about [tape irregularity] no reason why I should assume that she gives a shit about me, so –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know she cares about you.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, that doesn’t matter anymore. June is nonexistent. If — I have no — I have nothing for her anymore. I will never talk to her again, ever. Never. She’s a horrible human being, and it’s all gonna come out, and I don’t even have to say that [tape irregularity]. I’ll let everybody make their own decision.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: June is a horrible, selfish human being. [tape irregularity], and now I find this out about how [tape irregularity] — it’s all over. And if they’re stupid enough not to talk to me tomorrow, well, they’re going to have –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I think they want to talk to you, and I want to talk to you.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then they should –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But when it comes with a threat, I mean, that’s what’s upsetting to me.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s too bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) supposed to do to get someone’s attention? I say, “I am begging you to talk to me.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That doesn’t work. So then you cry hysterically on the phone, “I’m in so much pain because I’m losing” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Who did you say that — who was that to?

MR. CHANDLER: To June.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and how long ago was that?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, three weeks, maybe.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And then you call up and you say, “I demand to talk to him.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: None of that works.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) get the same response. I mean, no emotion from the other side whatsoever.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.

MR. CHANDLER: Nothing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Except the coldest response you can possibly imagine, okay?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And maybe it’s because she’s insecure. I don’t care anymore –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I cared at the time. I mean, I was totally shocked that she would respond that way to me. I couldn’t believe it. Okay? So I know that I have tried in every way. I’ve appealed to her in every way I know how. I’ve appealed to her intelligence, I’ve appealed to her emotions, and so I’ve done every — I’ve gotten on the ground and I’ve groveled in front of her. I’ve gone so far as to tell her that her son is in danger.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: None of it made a difference, none of it, and so what else am I supposed to do to get their attention?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I –

MR. CHANDLER: If I didn’t care, Dave, I wouldn’t have left that message.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: I just would have gone and done whatever I wanted to do –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and they’d have gotten the shock of their life –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — that all of a sudden would have appeared out of nowhere, and then their whole lives would be forever different and forever bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to gain by talking to them tomorrow. All that can happen tomorrow is that I’m gonna look at their faces and I’m gonna feel bad –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m gonna mitigate my position. I’m gonna give in somewhat [tape irregularity] I just went ahead and did what I was gonna do, I don’t ever have to see them again –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — they’re automatically gonna be destroyed and I’m gonna get what I want. That’s a given [tape irregularity], so –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean, is that the way to get Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: — talk to them — I’m talking to them for their sake –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — mine. This is my fourth, fifth and last attempt to communicate.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So when I leave a threatening message, I am threatening them –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because nothing else works. Crying didn’t work. Begging didn’t work. Intelligence didn’t work.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Appealing to the motherly [tape irregularity] nothing worked. So what else is left? You threaten. If that doesn’t work, you’ve basically tried everything there is that you could possibly try.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I didn’t threaten him physically. I didn’t say I was going to kill them. Michael can show up with all his bodyguards with guns and surround me if he wants to.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not killing anybody tomorrow. It’s not the next step. His death is not the next (inaudible), so I mean I will talk to them tomorrow, but that’s for their — they can’t possibly feel threatened.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s bullshit. I didn’t threaten them physically in any way, and certainly Michael’s got enough [tape irregularity] lawyers (inaudible). He has Burt Fields, who’s a big hotshot, if he wants to, sit right there. I don’t give a shit.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Whatever, you know, is going to make them protected from my great threat. I’m showing up all by my little self, and they can show up with an entire army if they need to protect themselves from me, but there’s nothing that they can do to convince me that they’re not showing up because they’re afraid for their lives.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They could show up [tape irregularity] surrounded by bodyguards. He could certainly have them come over to June’s house, so [tape irregularity] threat was obviously the last (inaudible). I’ve never punched anybody. I’ve never shot anybody. I’ve never done anything violent in my life. There’s no reason why they should feel physically threatened. Never ever given them any indication that I [tape irregularity] Jordy, so, you know, they know that that threat’s [tape irregularity] to be fearful of that. They know that that [tape irregularity] and they know that I left it because there’s no other way to get ahold of them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s fair.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I think it’s fair.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Let me ask you this question. I mean, I definitely want to be there.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s fine.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Can we do it at night?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Has to be –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not? Why does it have to be in the morning?

MR. CHANDLER: Because it’s too late at night.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn’t have to be late –

MR. CHANDLER: I have to have the regular business hours. I need as many business hours –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if it doesn’t go my way to get the wheels going.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But what time are you ready to — what time are you through work tomorrow –

MR. CHANDLER: The wheels roll at : if they’re not there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but can you do that for me, make it later?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) do it. I can’t. You don’t have to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to –

MR. CHANDLER: — tape record it. You can hear it all.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to be there.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you have to be there at :. It’s already set.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: There are other people involved that are waiting for my phone call that are intentionally going to be in certain positions –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity].

I paid them to do it. They’re doing their job. I gotta just go ahead and follow through on the time zone.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean the time set out. Everything is going according to a certain plan that isn’t just mine. There’s other people involved –

MR. SCHWARTZ: How about😕

MR. CHANDLER: Nope. : is not even going to work. I mean, they’re going to have — they’re going to have to be there or not be there. It’s up to them what happens now. I mean, it’s not going to be [tape irregularity] whether they’re there or not.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But if they are there, it’s going to be far better than if they’re not — I mean, they’re going to have a chance to make things a lot better if they’re there. My instructions were to kill and destroy [tape irregularity], I’m telling you.  mean, and by killing and destroying, I’m going to torture them, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because that’s what June has done to me. She has tortured me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she’s gonna know that you can’t [tape irregularity]. I’ll tell you one thing that Jordy has no idea about, and that’s what love means. He doesn’t even have the remotest idea. He can’t learn it from June. She doesn’t know what it means. She has no conception of what it means.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So maybe, you know, I can get (inaudible) teach him that. I don’t know.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah [tape irregularity].

MR. CHANDLER: Part of it [tape irregularity] other people and communicating, and those are three things that must be in place in order for a loving relationship to exist, because all of those things show that you care about that other person. Not one thing [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but it was there.

MR. CHANDLER: No, I don’t think it ever was, now that I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — look at her behavior, I’m just saying that June is a brilliant and pathologic personality.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: What you see on the surface ain’t even remotely related to what’s really going on underneath.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I believe that that will come out in lie detector [tape irregularity] psychological evaluations –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — which they’re all gonna have to do.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So –

MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that’s good for Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: I think that in the long run would — of course it’s not the best thing for Jordy.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The best thing for Jordy would be for everybody to sit there and peaceably resolve amongst themselves [tape irregularity], but because they’re not willing to do that, I’m not allowed to have a say in what the best [tape irregularity]. I’m not even allowed to [tape irregularity] Jordy is. I’m not allowed to have a say in anything about Jordy. So when you ask me that question [tape irregularity] I would welcome them to do that, but they don’t care. They don’t care about what I think, so they don’t ask me that question. Do I think — I mean, just to answer your question, I think that [tape irregularity] for Jordy either way in the short [tape irregularity], in the short term.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I think in the long term he’s got a [tape irregularity] a chance of being a happy human being if I do what I have to do than if I let things go the way they are. Could a compromise be worked out? Possibly.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Let them convince me as to why [tape irregularity] tell me I’m wrong. Let them show me how Jordy’s benefitting and not being harmed. They got their chance.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: If they don’t want it, they haven’t wanted to take it before.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They’ve had four or five times that I’ve called them [tape irregularity] haven’t wanted to get in a conversation with me about it, and I believe they don’t want to get in a conversation with me about it is because they know they can’t defend their position.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: [tape irregularity] to cut — I mean, I’m young, I’m really liberal. As far as I’m concerned, anybody could do anything they want. That’s my philosophy. You guys can do whatever you want. Just be happy. Don’t get hurt. So . . .

(End of Tape , Side B.)

June Chandler’s Official Testimony in the 2005 Michael Jackson Trial

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This comes from the official court documents that were sent to me directly from Mr. Thomas Mesereau, lead defense attorney for the 2005 case.  This particular testimony took place on April 11th, 2005 in a court of law in Santa Maria, CA

 

22 MR. SNEDDON: June Chandler, Your Honor.

23 THE BAILIFF: She’s on her way, Your Honor.

24 THE COURT: 804 and 805 are not admitted.

25 Come forward, please. When you get to the

26 witness stand here, remain standing.

27 Face the clerk here and raise your right

28 hand.

5595

 

 

1 JUNE CHANDLER

2 Having been sworn, testified as follows:

3

4 THE WITNESS: I do.

5 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and

6 spell your name for the record.

7 THE WITNESS: June Chandler. J-u-n-e;

8 C-h-a-n-d-l-e-r.

9 THE CLERK: Thank you.

10 THE WITNESS: You’re welcome.

11

12 DIRECT EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. SNEDDON:

14 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Chandler.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I want to go back in time a little bit to

17 around 1992 and ’93, okay?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And are you related in some fashion to

20 Jordan Chandler?

21 A. Yes. He is my son.

22 Q. Okay. And we’re going — you know, I should

23 have done this before we started.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You have to lean right into that microphone

26 so everybody can hear what you have to say. We’ve

27 had the same problem with everybody, so it’s not

28 just you.

5596

 

 

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. You have a very soft voice, so you keep it

3 up, all right?

4 A. Okay. I will.

5 Q. Let me start all over again and ask you

6 again. Are you related to Jordan Chandler?

7 A. Yes, I am. He is my son.

8 Q. Do you have any other sons or daughters?

9 A. Yes, I have a daughter.

10 Q. And her name?

11 A. Lily Chandler.

12 Q. And how old is Lily right now?

13 A. 17 years old.

14 Q. Now, in 1992 and 1993, were you married?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. And to whom were you married?

17 A. To David Schwartz.

18 Q. And is David Schwartz the father of either

19 of your children?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Which one?

22 A. Lily Chandler.

23 Q. And prior to your marriage with David

24 Schwartz, you were married to Evan Chandler,

25 correct?

26 A. Correct.

27 Q. And Evan Chandler is the father of Jordan

28 Chandler?

5597

 

 

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. What is Jordan’s date of birth?

3 A. January 11th, 1980.

4 Q. And to your knowledge, had — by the time of

5 the events in 1992 and ’93, had Evan Chandler

6 remarried?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you know his wife or did you know his

9 wife at that time?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And her name is?

12 A. Natalie Chandler.

13 Q. And did they have any other children?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. And the child’s name?

16 A. Nicky Chandler. And Emmanuelle Chandler.

17 Q. And at the time of 1992 and 1993, can you

18 give us the approximate ages of those children?

19 A. As best as I can recall, seven and four.

20 Q. And who is the oldest?

21 A. Nicky Chandler, the son.

22 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you some

23 photographs. The first photograph we have that’s

24 marked is 793, the next one is 794, and the next one

25 is 795, okay?

26 The first one, 793, I’ll ask you if you

27 recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

28 A. No, I do not.

5598

 

 

1 Q. Have you ever seen that person before?

2 A. Not that I recall.

3 Q. And I want to show you a photograph marked

4 as 794, or Exhibit 794. Do you recognize the people

5 depicted in that photograph?

6 A. Not that I recall.

7 Q. Neither the top nor the bottom?

8 A. He might look familiar.

9 Q. Okay. And the bottom photograph?

10 A. I don’t recall.

11 Q. And with regard to Exhibit No. 795, do you

12 recognize any of the people depicted in that

13 photograph?

14 A. I recall this boy and Michael Jackson.

15 Q. All right. “This boy” meaning the person on

16 the far left-hand side of the Exhibit 795?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And do you recall the boy’s name?

19 A. Brett Barnes.

20 Q. Do you recall where you saw Mr. Barnes, or

21 the child Barnes?

22 A. At Neverland.

23 Q. Okay. So with regard to the Photographs

24 793, 794 and 795, none of those photographs are

25 pictures of your son, correct?

26 A. No. No.

27 Q. I want to show you 776; ask you if you

28 recognize that photograph?

5599

 

 

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And who is that?

3 A. That’s my son.

4 Q. Your son?

5 A. Jordan.

6 Q. All right. Thank you.

7 Your Honor, with the Court’s permission, I’d

8 like to publish these just so the jury knows what

9 the witness has testified to.

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 MR. SNEDDON: And we’re going to do it on

12 the Elmo, Your Honor. So if we could have that.

13 All right, Gordon?

14 Q. All right. The photograph that’s on the

15 board that’s 793 is an exhibit of the child with the

16 long black hair. And that is not your son, Jordan

17 Chandler?

18 A. No, it’s not.

19 Q. All right. And the next exhibit would be

20 794. And specifically I’m going to direct your

21 attention to the child sitting on the floor with the

22 arrow drawn up to him. Do you recognize that child?

23 A. Barely.

24 Q. Who do you think that — when you say

25 “barely,” who do you recognize —

26 A. I would say it’s probably a younger photo of

27 the boy above.

28 Q. And do you recognize who the boy above in

5600

 

 

1 that photograph is?

2 A. I think that’s Brett Barnes.

3 Q. Okay. And the last photo is 795. And you

4 indicated the child on the far left-hand side of the

5 photograph; is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. The child with the hat next to Mr. Jackson?

8 A. Correct. That’s Brett Barnes.

9 Q. That’s Brett Barnes. All right. Thank you.

10 And lastly, the photograph marked as 776,

11 you’ve identified that as your child, Jordan,

12 correct?

13 A. My son Jordan.

14 Q. Your son Jordan?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Thank you.

17 We can have the lights again, Your Honor.

18 Now, Mrs. Chandler, do you recognize the

19 defendant in this case, Michael Jackson?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. And have you been in Mr. Jackson’s presence

22 before?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, your son Jordan, did you have — let me

25 go back in time. Did you have an occasion where you

26 actually met Michael Jackson?

27 A. Yes, I had an occasion.

28 Q. For the first time?

5601

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of

3 the jury, where did that occur?

4 A. That occurred at my ex-husband’s employment,

5 Rent-A-Wreck.

6 Q. And where is that located?

7 A. In West L.A.

8 Q. And was — do you remember about

9 approximately when that occurred?

10 A. It was in the summer of ’92. Late summer.

11 Q. And were you actually at the — your

12 husband’s place of business when Mr. Jackson showed

13 up?

14 A. After he showed up, yes.

15 Q. Okay. You received a telephone call from

16 someone?

17 A. Yes, from my ex-husband.

18 Q. And by the way, your ex-husband’s name is

19 what?

20 A. David Schwartz.

21 Q. Did you ever take Mr. Schwartz’s last name?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. So you’ve always been June Chandler?

24 A. I’ve always been June Chandler.

25 Q. So you received a telephone call and then

26 you went down to his place of business?

27 A. Yes, I did.

28 Q. With regard to your son Jordan, did Jordan

5602

 

 

1 go with you?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there?

4 A. Yes, he was.

5 Q. And do you recall how long you were with Mr.

6 Jackson and Jordan that day?

7 A. Briefly. Five minutes. Ten minutes.

8 Q. And did — was there any information

9 exchanged between you and Mr. Jackson that day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was that?

12 A. I said, “If you would like to see Jordie or

13 if he could call you or if you’d like to speak to

14 him, here is our number, and you can give him a

15 call.”

16 Q. And you gave that to Mr. Jackson?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Now, let me go back in time. Before this

19 meeting that you had at your husband’s place of

20 business in 1992, had Jordan ever expressed, to your

21 knowledge, some admiration for Mr. Jackson?

22 A. Oh, very much so, yes.

23 Q. How did he display that admiration?

24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.

25 MR. SNEDDON: I didn’t ask for a statement,

26 Your Honor. I asked for a display.

27 THE COURT: All right.

28 He’s not asking for anything that was said.

5603

 

 

1 Do you understand the question?

2 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question,

3 please?

4 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Yes.

5 How did your son Jordan, prior to this

6 meeting that occurred at David Schwartz’s place of

7 business, express — display his admiration for Mr.

8 Jackson?

9 A. He had a little sparkly jacket that he would

10 wear to parties. He would have a glove like Michael

11 Jackson, and dance around like Michael Jackson.

12 Q. And this was all before he met Mr. Jackson?

13 A. Before he met Michael Jackson, yes.

14 Q. Now, after the incident occurred where there

15 was an exchange where you gave Mr. Jackson your

16 telephone number — and let me go back and ask you a

17 question about that. Was the telephone number you

18 gave him your home number?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. Did — to your knowledge, did Mr. Jackson

21 ever call your son Jordan?

22 A. Yes, he did.

23 Q. And do you recall, for the ladies and

24 gentlemen of the jury, approximately what the time

25 span was from the incident that occurred at your

26 ex-husband’s place of business to the time that Mr.

27 Jackson actually called your son?

28 A. To the best of my recollection, it could

5604

 

 

1 have been a month or two after our first meeting

2 with Michael Jackson at Rent-A-Wreck.

3 Q. Were you actually in the room when Mr.

4 Jackson called?

5 A. I don’t recall being in the room, but I

6 might have been.

7 Q. Do you recall at some time visiting

8 Neverland Ranch?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately when that

11 occurred?

12 A. I recall around February.

13 Q. Of?

14 A. 1993.

15 Q. 1993?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So what I want to ask you is, between the

18 time that Mr. Jackson started calling your son to

19 the time that you went to Neverland Ranch, can you

20 give the jury some idea of the number of times Mr.

21 Jackson called your son Jordan?

22 A. To the best of my recollection —

23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Were you present in the

26 house when these conversations occurred?

27 A. Yes, I was.

28 Q. Did you sometimes answer the phone?

5605

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And Mr. Jackson was on the line?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. And were you also present in the house

5 during the time to observe the length of the

6 conversations between your son and Mr. Jackson?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. On more than one occasion?

9 A. Absolutely.

10 Q. All right. So based upon your observations

11 and the things that you saw and the things that you

12 heard, give us an estimate of the number of times,

13 that you know of, that Mr. Jackson called your son

14 Jordan.

15 A. I would say eight to ten times.

16 Q. And with regard to those conversations in

17 which you have personal knowledge of the length of

18 time, could you give the jury some idea of how long

19 these conversations lasted?

20 A. It was from maybe ten minutes, to an hour,

21 or an hour and a half. It progressed. It got

22 longer and longer.

23 Q. Could you describe to the jury what your

24 son’s reaction was to these phone calls?

25 A. He was excited to hear from him. They were

26 talking about things that interested Jordie, so,

27 um —

28 Q. In those occasions where you picked up the

5606

 

 

1 phone and you talked to Mr. Jackson, did he tell you

2 where he was?

3 A. No, he didn’t tell me. No.

4 Q. Now, how is it that you and Jordan ended up

5 going to Neverland Valley Ranch for the first time?

6 A. We were invited to go to Neverland, because

7 during those conversations, Michael Jackson said,

8 “Would you like to come to visit? When I am

9 finished touring,” he was doing a European tour, I

10 think, he said we can come and visit. And my son

11 was very excited to be able to go up there and see

12 Neverland.

13 Q. Now, the first time you went to Neverland,

14 you told the jury it was sometime in February of

15 1993. How did you get there?

16 A. I drove.

17 Q. And who went with you besides Jordan, if

18 anyone?

19 A. My daughter Lily.

20 Q. And at this point in time, how old was Lily?

21 A. Was seven, I think. Seven or eight.

22 Q. And Jordan was born in 1980, so he was 13

23 years old at the time you made the first visit,

24 correct?

25 A. 12, 13, yes. Yes.

26 Q. And do you recall whether it was during the

27 week or on a weekend that you visited?

28 A. On a weekend.

5607

 

 

1 Q. During the time that you were — during this

2 first visit, do you recall how many days you were

3 there?

4 A. Oh, two nights.

5 Q. Okay. So two nights and at least two days

6 and possibly a third day?

7 A. Two nights. There was not a third day.

8 Q. And where did you stay while you were at the

9 ranch?

10 A. Guest cottage.

11 Q. Where did you personally stay?

12 A. The guest cottages at Neverland.

13 Q. And was there somebody in your cottage with

14 you?

15 A. Yes, my daughter and my son.

16 Q. So Jordan stayed with you and Lily in the

17 same cottage?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And was this during the entire length of

20 this first visit?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And while you were at the ranch during the

23 first visit, did you see Mr. Jackson?

24 A. Yes, we did.

25 Q. And did you spend time with Mr. Jackson?

26 A. Yes, I did.

27 Q. Did you spend a lot of time with Mr.

28 Jackson?

5608

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when you say, “Yes, I did,” can you tell

3 us about what Jordan and Lily did?

4 A. We were all either taking rides on the

5 Ferris wheel, playing video games. Jordie and

6 Michael were playing video games. I was watching.

7 Lily was playing. We looked at his animals that he

8 had. Just different things that were at Neverland.

9 Q. Okay. And I think you’ve described that as

10 being an amazing weekend?

11 A. Yes. Fun.

12 Q. Now, during the time that you were there on

13 this first visit, do you recall whether or not you

14 went with Mr. Jackson to a business called

15 Toys-R-Us?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And could you tell us about that?

18 A. I guess it was after hours, after Toys-R-Us

19 closed, and Michael said, “Jordie and Lily, you get

20 to go shopping and buy toys, get toys.”

21 So we went and —

22 Q. When you say “we went,” who’s “we”?

23 A. Lily and Jordie and Michael and I went. And

24 they had fun. They were shopping and Michael bought

25 lots of things for them. They picked out stuff, and

26 they were showered with great presents from

27 Toys-R-Us.

28 Q. And Mr. Jackson paid for all of that?

5609

 

 

1 A. I — yes, he did.

2 Q. You didn’t, right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, after you left Neverland Valley Ranch

5 after this first visit, did you ever go back to

6 Neverland Valley Ranch?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you recall how much time elapsed

9 between the first time you went there and the second

10 time you went back?

11 A. It could be a week later or two weeks after.

12 Q. And when you went back the second time, do

13 you recall how you got there?

14 A. I — to the best of my recollection, I was

15 picked up by Michael Jackson.

16 Q. When you say “picked up by Michael Jackson,”

17 in what form of transportation was that?

18 A. In his car, limo.

19 Q. And who else was with you when you got

20 picked up? I mean, from your family. Let’s start

21 that way first.

22 A. It was Lily, my daughter, and Jordan.

23 Q. So the three of you?

24 A. My son.

25 Q. The three of you went back to the ranch?

26 A. Right.

27 Q. Was there anybody else in the limo that you

28 recall with Mr. Jackson?

5610

 

 

1 A. Well —

2 Q. Let me go back and make something clear.

3 A. Sure.

4 Q. Was Mr. Jackson actually in the limo

5 himself?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. Now, let’s ask the question —

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. — was there anybody else in the limo other

10 than Mr. Jackson and the three of you?

11 A. Yes, there was Brett Barnes.

12 Q. And do you recall where Mr. — where the

13 child Brett — let me ask you this: With regard to

14 Brett Barnes, can you estimate about approximately

15 what age you felt Brett Barnes was at this point?

16 A. 11. 10, 11.

17 Q. So he was a child?

18 A. He was a child.

19 Q. And where was Brett Barnes in the car in

20 relationship to Mr. Jackson?

21 A. Sitting next to Michael Jackson.

22 Q. Now, on the second visit you went to the

23 ranch, do you recall how long you stayed?

24 A. A weekend.

25 Q. And did you spend time — did you personally

26 spend time with Mr. Jackson that weekend?

27 A. Yes, I did.

28 Q. Did Jordan spend time with him that weekend?

5611

 

 

1 A. Yes, he did.

2 Q. And did you see Brett Barnes around there

3 that weekend?

4 A. Yes. I don’t really remember, but yes, he

5 was there, too. Yes, he was enjoying that time

6 also.

7 Q. And where did you personally sleep during

8 your stay, the second visit to Neverland Valley

9 Ranch?

10 A. Guest cottages.

11 Q. Where did Lily stay?

12 A. In the guest cottages.

13 Q. And where did your son Jordan stay?

14 A. In the guest cottages.

15 Q. Now, the guest cottages are all located in

16 one general area, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They’re all sort of connected into one

19 building?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. With regard to that building, did you ever

22 see Brett Barnes anywhere around the building and

23 the cottages?

24 A. Not that I recall.

25 Q. Now, how did you get home from Neverland on

26 this second visit?

27 A. We were driven home.

28 Q. In a limo?

5612

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was Mr. Jackson present?

3 A. I don’t recall.

4 Q. Was there ever an occasion where you went to

5 Disneyland?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you recall when that happened in

8 relationship to like either one of these first,

9 second visits?

10 A. That could have been that weekend, the

11 second weekend that we were at Neverland that we

12 went — instead of going to Los Angeles, we went to

13 Anaheim, to Disneyland. It could have been that

14 weekend.

15 Q. And who all went to Disneyland?

16 A. I remember Jordan, Lily, Michael and I, and

17 perhaps Brett.

18 Q. Now, did you ever have an occasion to visit

19 Neverland Valley Ranch again?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you remember approximately how much

22 time elapsed between the second visit and the third

23 visit?

24 A. It could have been a week. A weekend.

25 Q. And when you went to the ranch on this third

26 occasion, was Mr. Jackson present?

27 A. Yes, he was.

28 Q. And where did you sleep?

5613

 

 

1 A. In the guest cottages.

2 Q. And where did Lily sleep?

3 A. In the guest cottages.

4 Q. And where did Jordan sleep?

5 A. In the guest cottages.

6 Q. At some point in time during any one of

7 these three visits to — these three visits you’ve

8 described to the jury, did your son request to sleep

9 in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?

10 A. Yes —

11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

12 THE WITNESS: — he did.

13 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.

14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And do you recall during

15 which one of the visits it was that the request

16 came?

17 A. Oh, the third visit.

18 Q. And did you allow him to do that?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Did you notice — I may not have asked this

21 with regard to the third visit, but you indicated in

22 at least the first visit that Jordan slept with you

23 in your guest cottage, correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. In the second visit, did Jordan sleep with

26 you in your guest cottage?

27 A. Yes, he did.

28 Q. And the third visit, did Jordan sleep with

5614

 

 

1 you in your guest cottage?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Did you notice anything with regard to what

4 time of the day or night it was that Jordan finally

5 came to your cottage to go to bed?

6 A. I assume it was late, after eleven o’clock.

7 Q. Why do you assume that?

8 A. Because they were playing all day and all

9 night. And it was a weekend. He did not have

10 school, so he was allowed to stay up later than

11 11:00.

12 Q. During any of your visits to Neverland

13 Valley Ranch, did you ever meet any children from

14 New Jersey?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember their names?

17 A. Frankie and Eddie.

18 Q. And with regard to Frankie at this point in

19 time, do you recall approximately how old Frankie

20 was?

21 A. Around the same age as Jordan, or maybe

22 younger.

23 Q. And how about Eddie?

24 A. I don’t recall. I don’t know which one is

25 which.

26 Q. Do you recall their last name at all?

27 A. Cascio.

28 Q. And do you remember which one of the visits

5615

 

 

1 to the ranch was it that you met Frank Cascio?

2 A. No, I don’t.

3 Q. Was there — was there some point in time

4 when you took a trip with Mr. Jackson to Las Vegas?

5 A. Yes, there was.

6 Q. And do you remember when that trip occurred?

7 Just approximately what month, for instance?

8 A. The end of March.

9 Q. Of 1993?

10 A. Of ’93. Correct.

11 Q. Excuse me, my allergies are acting up today.

12 How did you get to Las Vegas?

13 A. By jet, private jet.

14 Q. And who was with you on the jet?

15 A. My son Jordan, Lily, myself and Michael.

16 Q. And when you got to Las Vegas, where did you

17 stay, what hotel?

18 A. The Mirage Hotel.

19 Q. And when you got to The Mirage Hotel, do you

20 remember what time of day or night it was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in Las

23 Vegas on this occasion?

24 A. Two or three nights.

25 Q. Now, when you got to Las Vegas, did you

26 have — obviously you had a room —

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. — in The Mirage.

5616

 

 

1 And who was in your room when you first got

2 there? Who was staying in your room?

3 A. Jordan, myself, Lily and Michael.

4 Q. All in the same room?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Now, did those arrangements change at any

7 point in time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when did they change?

10 A. The second night things changed.

11 Q. With regard to “things changed,” could you

12 tell me what changed first?

13 A. Well, there were approximately three

14 bedrooms in that suite at the Mirage Hotel. Lily

15 and I were staying in one bedroom, Jordie had

16 another bedroom, and Michael had another bedroom.

17 The second night, they were going to see a

18 performance, Cirque du Soleil performance.

19 Q. “They” meaning who?

20 A. Jordie and Michael —

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. — and Lily and I. It was around 11 p.m. at

23 night, and I got a call from somebody at Cirque du

24 Soleil saying, “Where is Michael?” And I said, “He

25 should be there with my son.” They said, “He’s not

26 here.”

27 A little while later, another call, he still

28 didn’t show up. They still did not show up. And

5617

 

 

1 I — there’s a knock on the door and it’s Michael

2 and Jordan, and they came back into the suite.

3 Michael —

4 Q. Now, let me stop you right there, okay?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. About what time is it when your son Jordan

7 and the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson, showed

8 up?

9 A. Well, I think the performance started at

10 11:00, and I would say Jordan and Michael showed up

11 around 11:30.

12 Q. Now, could you describe for the jury Mr.

13 Jackson’s demeanor at the time that they came back

14 to the room?

15 A. He was sobbing. He was crying, shaking,

16 trembling.

17 Q. Michael Jackson was?

18 A. He was.

19 Q. And what about your son’s demeanor?

20 A. He was quiet.

21 Q. Now, at that point in time, did Mr. Jackson

22 tell you why he was upset or crying?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Tell the jury what he said.

25 A. He said, “You don’t trust me? We’re a

26 family. Why are you doing this? Why are you not

27 allowing Jordie to be with me?” And I said, “He is

28 with you.”

5618

 

 

1 He said, “But my bedroom. Why not in my

2 bedroom? We fall asleep, the kids have fun.

3 Boys” —

4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;

5 narrative.

6 THE COURT: Narrative; sustained.

7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Tell us what –

8 Mr. Jackson said that he wanted your son to sleep

9 with him in his bed – what you said to Mr. Jackson.

10 A. What I said to Michael was, “This is not” —

11 “This is not anything that I want. This is not

12 right. Jordie should be able to do what he wants to

13 do. He should be able to fall asleep where he wants

14 to sleep.”

15 Q. Is this you talking or Mr. Jackson speaking?

16 A. I was saying this. And Michael was

17 trembling and saying, “We’re a family. Jordie is

18 having fun. Why can’t he sleep in my bed? There’s

19 nothing wrong. There’s nothing going on. Don’t you

20 trust me?”

21 Q. All right. How long do you think this

22 conversation lasted between you and Mr. Jackson over

23 where Jordan was going to sleep that night?

24 A. I would say 20 to 30, 40 minutes.

25 Q. So it was a back-and-forth conversation; is

26 that right?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Do you recall how many times during that

5619

 

 

1 conversation that Mr. Jackson emphasized the fact

2 that you didn’t trust him?

3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

4 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t recall how many

5 times —

6 THE COURT: Just a moment.

7 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry.

8 THE COURT: Overruled.

9 Go ahead. You may answer.

10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Go ahead.

11 A. I don’t recall how many times.

12 Q. Was it on more than one occasion?

13 A. Absolutely, yes.

14 Q. Was it on many occasions?

15 A. Quite a few.

16 Q. Do you remember how many times during the

17 conversation that Mr. Jackson emphasized to you that

18 you were family?

19 A. Many times.

20 Q. Did you at some point in time relent and

21 allow your son to sleep with Michael Jackson in his

22 bedroom?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. And was it after that discussion on that

25 night?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Is that the first occasion?

28 A. Correct.

5620

 

 

1 Q. When you were in Las Vegas, do you remember

2 how many of the nights in Las Vegas that your son

3 Jordan slept with the defendant, Michael Jackson, in

4 Michael Jackson’s room?

5 A. I would say two occasions.

6 Q. Now, at some point in time after you had

7 agreed to let your son Jordan sleep with Mr.

8 Jackson, were you the recipient of a gift from Mr.

9 Jackson?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. Would you describe that to the jury?

12 A. It was a gold bracelet, and it was given to

13 me by Michael.

14 Q. And you say “a gold bracelet.” Had you seen

15 that gold bracelet in a shop of some kind before?

16 A. I had seen it before, yes.

17 Q. And the brand name on that bracelet?

18 A. Cartier.

19 Q. Was it expensive, to your knowledge?

20 A. Oh, I — yes, it was.

21 Q. When was it you received this gift in

22 relationship to having agreed to allow your son to

23 sleep in bed with Mr. Jackson?

24 A. I think it was the next evening when we were

25 attending a show, a magic show, by David

26 Copperfield.

27 Q. Mrs. Chandler, do you recall after Las Vegas

28 where you went, where you personally and Jordan

5621

 

 

1 went? When you came back from Vegas, where did you

2 go; do you recall?

3 A. After Vegas, I — it could be back to

4 Disneyland, back to Neverland, or home. I’m not

5 exactly certain.

6 Q. Was Mr. Jackson with you wherever it was

7 that you went? Did he go back with you, in other

8 words?

9 A. Yes, he did.

10 Q. And did Mr. Jackson continue to spend his

11 nights with your son in the same room, in the same

12 bed, from Las Vegas, from that point on?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there other visits to Neverland Valley

15 Ranch after you came back from Las Vegas?

16 A. Yes, there were.

17 Q. And were there occasions when your son went

18 up to the ranch where you and Lily did not accompany

19 him to the ranch?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember on how many such occasions?

22 A. I would say two or three times.

23 Q. And were there occasions also where you and

24 Lily and Jordan also went up to the ranch after Las

25 Vegas?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And on those occasions when you went up to

28 the ranch after Las Vegas, where did you stay?

5622

 

 

1 A. I stayed in the guest cottages.

2 Q. And where did Lily stay?

3 A. In the guest cottages.

4 Q. And where did Jordan stay?

5 A. In Michael Jackson’s bedroom.

6 Q. Were there ever any occasions that you

7 recall where you actually, when you got to the

8 ranch, that you would take Jordan’s suitcase in and

9 take it into Mr. Jackson’s bedroom and leave it

10 there?

11 A. Possibly.

12 Q. So you knew that he was going to be spending

13 the night with Michael Jackson in Michael Jackson’s

14 bedroom at this point in time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, were there occasions after you got back

17 from Las Vegas — let me — where Mr. Jackson

18 actually was invited to stay at your residence where

19 you lived at this point in time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, what city was it that you lived in at

22 this time?

23 A. Santa Monica.

24 Q. We’re talking about 1993, in the spring,

25 right?

26 A. Correct.

27 Q. Okay. Where did you live?

28 A. Santa Monica.

5623

 

 

1 Q. And at this point in time, was Mr. Schwartz

2 living with you?

3 A. No, he wasn’t.

4 Q. So in the household was there anybody

5 besides you and Jordan and Lily?

6 A. My housekeeper.

7 Q. And was that a full-time housekeeper?

8 A. Yes, she was.

9 Q. 24 hours a day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did she live in the house?

12 A. Yes, she did. She was a live-in.

13 Q. That’s what I meant. Sorry. Clumsy

14 question.

15 And during this time, did Mr. Jackson ever

16 spend the night at your residence?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. And do you recall on how many occasions Mr.

19 Jackson spent the night at your residence?

20 A. I would say more than 30 times.

21 Q. And were some of those occasions on

22 consecutive days or nights?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how long consecutively do you think that

25 that occurred?

26 A. Oh. It could be a week or two at a time.

27 Q. Where did Mr. Jackson stay in the house?

28 A. In Jordan’s bedroom.

5624

 

 

1 Q. Are there more than one bed in that room?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I am assuming that Jordan was going to

4 school during this period of time.

5 A. He was.

6 Q. So Mr. Jackson would spend the night there.

7 What would happen when Jordan would go to school?

8 To your knowledge, what did Mr. Jackson do?

9 A. Michael would leave.

10 Q. And approximately what time would he return?

11 A. After Jordan came home from school.

12 Q. And so was this the routine that was

13 followed during the time that Mr. Jackson was

14 staying at your residence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you ever — have you ever been to Disney

17 World —

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. — in Orlando, Florida?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And have you been to Disney World with the

22 defendant in this case, Michael Jackson?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you remember approximately when it

25 was that you went to Disney World with Mr. Jackson?

26 A. I would say in May.

27 Q. Of ’93?

28 A. Of ’93.

5625

 

 

1 Q. And when you went to Disney World with Mr.

2 Jackson, who else went with you?

3 A. Jordan and Lily.

4 Q. Do you recall where you stayed?

5 A. I recall The Grand Floridian was one hotel.

6 Q. And during the time that — do you remember

7 how many days — did you go there on more than one

8 occasion?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. How many occasions?

11 A. Twice.

12 Q. And do you recall what the sleeping

13 arrangements were on the first occasion?

14 A. Jordie was with Michael and Lily was with

15 me.

16 Q. And when you say “with Michael” —

17 A. In Michael’s bedroom.

18 Q. Now, during the time that you visited Disney

19 World in Orlando, would you describe the nature of

20 the relationship that was going on, that you

21 observed personally, between the defendant in this

22 case, Michael Jackson, and your son Jordan?

23 A. The behavior, you say?

24 Q. Yeah.

25 A. The behavior with my son was he was not

26 wanting to be with Lily and I anymore, and he was

27 just with Michael the whole time, and he wasn’t too

28 happy. Just — well, I couldn’t — I didn’t have

5626

 

 

1 any communication with him really.

2 Q. Was this something that you observed for the

3 first time in Orlando or was this something that you

4 began to observe over a period of time?

5 A. It was a period of time, and it gradually

6 happened.

7 Q. Did you notice any change in your son —

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. — Jordan?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was the nature of the change?

12 A. Well, he started dressing like Michael. He

13 started acting withdrawn, sort of smart-alecky. Not

14 as sweet as he normally was. And withdrawn. He

15 just didn’t want to be with us, Lily and I.

16 Q. Had you always been close prior to that?

17 A. Extremely close.

18 Q. Do you — I think you answered this, but

19 just in case, how many days did you think you were

20 in Florida?

21 A. Oh, I don’t really remember, but it’s

22 probably more than two nights. Two, three nights.

23 Q. And after you came back from Florida, do you

24 recall where you went?

25 A. After that, I think the next trip was to

26 Monaco.

27 Q. In between the time that you went to Florida

28 and to Monaco, do you recall where you were — where

5627

 

 

1 you were personally staying?

2 A. No. I guess home.

3 Q. Do you remember how much time elapsed

4 between the two trips?

5 A. Not really, no.

6 Q. Was it more than a month, more than a week?

7 Obviously it was more than a day or so.

8 A. Yes. It was a couple — it could be three

9 weeks.

10 Q. And during that time when you got back from

11 Florida till the time that you left for Monaco, were

12 you with Mr. Jackson?

13 A. At times.

14 Q. And the times that you were with Mr.

15 Jackson, was Jordan with Mr. Jackson?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when he’s with Mr. Jackson, where did he

18 sleep?

19 A. With Mr. Jackson.

20 Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Joy

21 Robeson?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Wade

24 Robeson?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And do you recall where it was that you met

27 Joy Robeson?

28 A. Yes, I do.

5628

 

 

1 Q. Where was that?

2 A. That was at Neverland, one of the visits.

3 Q. Do you recall when it was that you met Wade

4 Robeson?

5 A. One of the visits to Neverland.

6 Q. And do you recall approximately which visit

7 it would have been or what month it would have been

8 that you met these individuals?

9 A. It could have been my third visit to

10 Neverland.

11 Q. Did you meet them on more than one occasion?

12 A. I met Wade on more than one occasion, yes.

13 Q. And how many times did you meet Joy Robeson?

14 A. One.

15 Q. One occasion?

16 A. That I remember.

17 Q. There were occasions when Wade Robeson was

18 there that the mother was not there?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Now, you’ve indicated to the jury on at

21 least one occasion, perhaps two, that Brett Barnes

22 was also at Neverland Valley Ranch?

23 A. Yes, he was there too.

24 Q. And did you ever meet Brett Barnes’ mother?

25 A. No.

26 Q. So he was at the ranch by himself also?

27 A. Oh, yes. Yes, he was.

28 Q. Did you ever meet a Mr. Robeson, the father?

5629

 

 

1 A. No. No, not that I remember.

2 Q. Did you ever meet a Mr. Barnes at any point?

3 A. Not that I remember, no.

4 Q. So no fathers in the picture?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, prior to the time that you met Joe

7 Robeson for the first time – okay? —

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. — on your visit to Neverland Valley Ranch,

10 did you have a discussion with the defendant in this

11 case, Mr. Jackson, with regard to some warnings that

12 Mr. Jackson gave you about Joy Robeson?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did Mr. Jackson tell you?

15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance.

16 MR. SNEDDON: I think it’s an admission of

17 Mr. Jackson with regard to the relationship with the

18 boys.

19 MR. MESEREAU: Relevance and hearsay.

20 THE COURT: I’m not sure what you’re trying

21 to introduce. I’m searching my memory for that. I

22 don’t know, maybe you should approach with counsel.

23 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you, Your Honor.

24 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)

25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Mrs. Chandler?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Okay. Now, you had a conversation with Mr.

28 Jackson, is that correct?

5630

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, at the time — and please do not tell

3 us what was said, but did you subsequently have a

4 conversation with Miss Robeson —

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. — wade’s mother?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Okay. Now, after that conversation, did you

9 develop any concerns about some of the things that

10 she had told you?

11 A. I —

12 Q. I think you have to answer that “yes” or

13 “no.” We don’t want to get into what she said.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And with regard to that particular

16 conversation, let me ask you this: Had you been

17 invited by the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson,

18 to go on a tour with him, you and Jordan?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And where were you invited by Mr. Jackson to

21 go on a tour?

22 A. I don’t know where the tour was going. I

23 guess a world tour somewhere in the summertime.

24 Q. Do you know where Miss Robeson, Mrs.

25 Robeson, was from, what country?

26 A. Australia.

27 Q. Do you know whether one of the stops on that

28 tour was going to be Australia?

5631

 

 

1 A. I think it was, yes.

2 Q. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about your

3 trip to France.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?

6 A. I think the middle of May.

7 Q. And how did you get there?

8 A. We flew.

9 Q. And was it on a charter or a commercial

10 airline?

11 A. Commercial airline.

12 Q. And you say “we,” so could you tell us who

13 it was that you went with?

14 A. My daughter, my son and Michael.

15 Q. And when you got to France, where in France

16 did you stay?

17 A. Monaco.

18 Q. And how long were you in Monaco?

19 A. Approximately four days.

20 Q. And during the time that you were there,

21 where did your son Jordan sleep?

22 A. In Michael Jackson’s bedroom.

23 Q. Now, did you ever go into that bedroom?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And were they in bed together on occasion?

26 A. On occasion, yes.

27 Q. Now, during the time that you were in

28 Monaco, did you do any shopping?

5632

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how was it that you — well, let me put

3 it this way: Who went shopping with you?

4 A. My daughter.

5 Q. You and Lily?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how many days did you do that?

8 A. Oh. One day.

9 Q. And who was paying for the —

10 A. Michael was.

11 Q. I’m sorry?

12 A. Michael was.

13 Q. And how did he arrange that?

14 A. I think I was given a credit card, his

15 credit card.

16 Q. So you went shopping in Monaco on Michael

17 Jackson’s credit card, you and your daughter?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, during this trip, did either your son

20 or Mr. Jackson get ill?

21 A. Yes, they both did.

22 Q. They had the flu?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were they in the room together the

25 entire time?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And when you went to France, did you go to

28 any other country, any other places in France, other

5633

 

 

1 than Monte Carlo?

2 A. We also went to Euro Disney outside of

3 Paris.

4 Q. And do you recall how long you were there?

5 A. A couple of days.

6 Q. Again, when you say “we,” you’re talking

7 about Jordan and Lily, and was the defendant with

8 you?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. And you say you spent a couple of days.

11 Where did Jordan sleep?

12 A. With Michael Jackson.

13 Q. Now, do you have a brother?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. What’s your brother’s name?

16 A. I have two brothers.

17 Q. What are their names?

18 A. Steven Wong and Dale Wong.

19 Q. And was there a time when one of your

20 brothers — where do they live? Let’s go that way.

21 A. One lives in Los Angeles. And the other

22 lives back east in New Jersey.

23 Q. And was there a time when you went back east

24 for a family wedding?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Do you remember about what month that was?

27 A. That was in September.

28 Q. And do you recall who it was who was getting

5634

 

 

1 married?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. That was my brother Steve and his wife.

5 Q. And when you went back for the wedding, what

6 city did you go to?

7 A. We went to New York City.

8 Q. And when you went back there, who went with

9 you?

10 A. My son, my daughter, and myself.

11 Q. And when you first got there, where did you

12 stay?

13 A. We stayed in a hotel.

14 Q. Do you remember the name of the hotel?

15 A. Yes, The Rega Royal Hotel.

16 Q. And do you know who made the arrangements

17 for that hotel?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Who was that?

20 A. Norma Stakos.

21 Q. And do you know who Mrs. Stakos is? Had you

22 had prior dealings with Mrs. Stakos?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On a number of occasions?

25 A. Telephone conversations only.

26 Q. And who did she work for?

27 A. She worked for Michael Jackson.

28 Q. And so she made the reservations for you at

5635

 

 

1 the hotel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did you learn that Mr. Jackson was

4 going to be with you in New York? Before or after

5 you left?

6 A. Before.

7 Q. Do you remember how many days before you

8 learned that?

9 A. Not really, no. I don’t remember.

10 Q. On the day of the actual wedding, was Mr.

11 Jackson there?

12 A. No, he was not.

13 Q. When did he show up in relationship to the

14 wedding?

15 A. After the wedding.

16 Q. Do you remember how many days he showed up,

17 how many days later?

18 A. It could be two days later.

19 Q. Now, when Mr. Jackson got there, did you see

20 him?

21 A. That evening briefly.

22 Q. Okay. Now, had something happened during

23 the time that you were in New York with your son

24 Jordan before Mr. Jackson arrived which caused some

25 problems in the family?

26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading and

27 vague.

28 THE COURT: Overruled.

5636

 

 

1 You may answer.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What was it?

4 A. Jordan was spending too much time with

5 Michael. I was getting upset. My brother was also

6 with me, and he was saying —

7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.

8 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Don’t tell us what he said,

9 but —

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. — could you describe his demeanor to us?

12 A. Jordan was not with us. He didn’t want to

13 be with us. He was very — he was sullen.

14 Q. Now, during this time, Mr. Jackson was not

15 there, correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And to your knowledge, from your own

18 personal knowledge, were Mr. Jackson and your son

19 Jordan in communication with each other during this

20 period of time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. By what method?

23 A. Telephone.

24 Q. And the frequency?

25 A. Often. Often. Long conversations.

26 Q. And was your brother upset by the situation,

27 too?

28 A. Yes.

5637

 

 

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

4 THE COURT: Stricken.

5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Could you describe to

6 the — describe your brother’s reaction to this

7 situation that was — that existed between Mr.

8 Jackson and your son Jordan.

9 A. Yes. My brother was happy for Jordan, but

10 he didn’t like that Jordie was just spending time

11 with Michael and not with his family.

12 Q. Now, when Mr. Jackson showed up in New York,

13 do you recall where he was staying?

14 A. Yes, he was staying across the hallway from

15 my room.

16 Q. And when Michael Jackson showed up, where

17 did Jordan sleep?

18 A. When Michael Jackson showed up, he slept in

19 Michael’s room.

20 Q. Now, when Mr. Jackson showed up the first

21 night, was there an incident that occurred in your

22 room?

23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

24 THE WITNESS: My room?

25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Yeah.

26 A. Yes, there was an incident.

27 MR. SNEDDON: You have to wait till the

28 Judge rules.

5638

 

 

1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 You can answer.

3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay, you can answer now.

4 A. Yes, there was an incident.

5 Q. Who was involved in the incident?

6 A. My daughter Lily —

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. — Michael and Jordan.

9 Q. And when you got back to your particular

10 room, did you notice any damage in the room?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And what was damaged?

13 A. I noticed there was damage in the morning.

14 There were two lamps that were broken.

15 Q. Now, did you at some point talk to Mr.

16 Jackson about what had happened the night before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And with regard to that conversation, did it

19 involve Jordan?

20 A. Yes, it did.

21 Q. And did it involve you?

22 A. Yes, it did.

23 Q. And did it involve Mr. Jackson?

24 A. Yes, it did.

25 Q. And the relationship between the two or

26 three of you?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Would you tell the jury what the

5639

 

 

1 conversation was about?

2 MR. MESEREAU: Objection to the extent it

3 calls for hearsay.

4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, this involves the

5 defendant and it involves statements that he makes.

6 THE COURT: But that’s not the question you

7 asked. I’ll sustain the objection.

8 Excuse me. Sustain the objection.

9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Let’s do it

10 this way. What did Mr. Jackson say about the

11 situation?

12 A. “Why can’t we be a family? Why are you

13 objecting to Jordie staying with me? Why can’t we

14 be a family? Why don’t you trust me?”

15 He was upset that I wanted my son back; that

16 I — I didn’t like the situation. It was getting

17 out of hand.

18 Q. Now, you’ve told the ladies and gentlemen of

19 the jury that Mr. Jackson had given you a bracelet

20 at one point in time and that you had gone shopping

21 with Mr. Jackson on his credit card in Monte Carlo.

22 Were there any other occasions when Mr.

23 Jackson gave you gifts?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What else did he give you?

26 A. He also gave me jewelry.

27 Q. And do you recall approximately when that

28 was?

5640

 

 

1 A. I think it was approximately in June.

2 Q. And what kind of jewelry?

3 A. A pair of earrings, a necklace, and a ring.

4 Q. And where were these items when you first

5 saw them?

6 A. The boxes were open on my bed in Santa

7 Monica.

8 Q. At your house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was Mr. Jackson staying at your house at

11 that point in time?

12 A. Not really. Not really. He was there, in

13 and out.

14 Q. In and out. Okay. Any other gifts you ever

15 received from Mr. Jackson?

16 A. Yes, a gift certificate to a store.

17 Q. And the store?

18 A. To a store.

19 Q. Yes. The store?

20 A. Fred Segal.

21 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was there ever an

22 occasion where your son Jordan and the defendant in

23 this case, Michael Jackson, were at your

24 ex-husband’s house, Evan Chandler?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

26 Q. And do you remember on how many occasions?

27 A. I would say one or two occasions.

28 Q. And do you remember the length of the stays

5641

 

 

1 on those occasions that Jordan stayed there?

2 A. A few days each time.

3 Q. So during this period of time you had

4 custody of Jordan, correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Now, you told us, I think, that there were

7 two trips to Florida?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember when the second trip was?

10 A. After June. July, early July possibly.

11 Q. And do you recall how long you stayed there

12 on that occasion?

13 A. I would say two or three nights.

14 Q. And where did Jordan sleep on those

15 occasions?

16 A. With Michael.

17 Q. Did Lily go with you on that trip?

18 A. Yes, she did.

19 Q. Had Jordan’s behavior or attitude changed in

20 any respect since the first time you described his

21 change from Florida, the first trip?

22 A. It was the same. Same.

23 Q. Father’s Day is in June, okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember a situation where you were

26 with Jordan, your son, on Father’s Day?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. In 1993?

5642

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I’m sure you were with him on other

3 occasions. Do you recall where you were in 1993 on

4 Father’s Day?

5 A. Yes, I was in New York.

6 Q. And to your knowledge, in your presence, did

7 Jordan call his father on Father’s Day?

8 A. Eventually he did, yes.

9 Q. And initially, did you have a conversation

10 with him?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Did he want to call his father?

13 A. No, he didn’t.

14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay; move to

15 strike.

16 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken.

17 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: As a result of the

18 conversation that you had with your son Jordan, did

19 he eventually call his father?

20 A. I think he did, yes.

21 Q. All right. At some point in time, did you

22 receive a message of some sort from your ex-husband

23 Evan about Mr. Jackson?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And don’t tell us what was said, okay? I

26 just want to get the facts and the background to it.

27 Where were you when you first heard the message?

28 A. In Michael Jackson’s car. In his limo.

5643

 

 

1 Q. And was Mr. Jackson with you?

2 A. Not when I got that call.

3 Q. Did the call come directly to you or did you

4 access it in some other fashion?

5 A. From another fashion.

6 Q. How was that?

7 A. Answering machine. I dialed in.

8 Q. So you dialed the answering machine on whose

9 answering machine?

10 A. My answering machine at home.

11 Q. And there was a message on the machine from

12 your ex-husband Evan, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did you at some point later play that

15 message for Mr. Jackson?

16 A. I don’t recall.

17 Q. Are you familiar with a person by the name

18 of Anthony Pellicano?

19 A. Yes, I am.

20 Q. And who is Anthony Pellicano, to your

21 knowledge?

22 A. A private investigator.

23 Q. And was Mr. Pellicano introduced to you by

24 somebody?

25 A. By Bert Fields and Michael Jackson.

26 Q. In relationship to this voice message that

27 you received on your message machine at your house,

28 do you recall how many days after that particular

5644

 

 

1 message, you received that message, that you were

2 introduced to Mr. Pellicano and Mr. Fields by Mr.

3 Jackson?

4 A. It could be a week later.

5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Move to strike;

6 misstates the evidence; and no foundation.

7 THE COURT: Sustained, stricken.

8 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you meet Anthony

9 Pellicano through the defendant, Michael Jackson?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

12 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer is,

13 “Yes.” Next question.

14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you meet Bert Fields

15 through the defendant, Michael Jackson?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you present during conversations with

18 Mr. Pellicano and Mr. Fields and Mr. Jackson?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. And this all occurred after the voice mail

21 had been left on your message machine by your

22 ex-husband Evan Chandler?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Now, did the defendant, Michael Jackson,

25 tell you who Anthony Pellicano was?

26 A. Yes, he did.

27 Q. What did he say about Mr. Pellicano?

28 A. “He can find out anything. He’s really good

5645

 

 

1 at this. He’s really good at investigating. If

2 you’re having a problem, he’ll get to the bottom of

3 it.”

4 Q. And Mr. Fields, Bert Fields, is what — you

5 know him by name. What occupation is he?

6 A. He’s an attorney.

7 Q. And he’s an attorney who works for who? Or

8 at this point in time, who did you know he was

9 working for?

10 A. He worked for Michael Jackson.

11 Q. Now, at some point in time, did you go to

12 Mr. Pellicano’s office to be interviewed by Mr.

13 Pellicano?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did somebody go with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was that?

18 A. My ex-husband, Dave Schwartz.

19 Q. And was there anybody else present during

20 this conversation?

21 A. I don’t remember. It could be Bert Fields

22 also.

23 Q. Now, after that conversation, did you go

24 somewhere else? Do you recall where you went?

25 A. To Michael Jackson’s home in Century City,

26 apartment in Century City.

27 Q. And was Mr. Jackson there?

28 A. He might have been.

5646

 

 

1 Q. At that particular location, was your son

2 Jordan Chandler there, can you tell us?

3 A. Yes, he might have been there, too.

4 Q. Do you recall whether or not or do you

5 recall an incident — doesn’t have to be on that

6 particular occasion, but do you recall an occasion

7 whether or not your son Jordan Chandler was ever

8 interviewed by Anthony Pellicano?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. Where did that interview take place?

11 A. In the Century City apartment.

12 Q. Were you present?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you present during the conversation?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Where were you?

17 A. Upstairs or in his — somewhere else.

18 Q. And do you recall how long that conversation

19 took?

20 A. Could have been 45 minutes.

21 Q. Now, after Mr. Pellicano and Mr. Fields were

22 introduced to you by Michael Jackson, were you

23 involved in some issues involving a change in

24 custody of your son Jordan?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And were you — were you presented with some

27 papers to sign?

28 A. Yes, I was.

5647

 

 

1 Q. And those papers did what?

2 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;

3 foundation; relevance.

4 THE COURT: Foundation; sustained.

5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: The papers were presented

6 to you by whom?

7 A. By Pellicano.

8 Q. And was Mr. Fields present?

9 A. I don’t think at that time.

10 Q. Do you recall if the defendant, Michael

11 Jackson, was present?

12 A. No, he wasn’t.

13 Q. At some point in time did you have a

14 conversation with Michael Jackson about signing

15 those papers?

16 A. I don’t recall talking to Michael about the

17 papers.

18 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to an

19 attorney, a Deputy District Attorney with the Los

20 Angeles District Attorney’s Office on September 3rd

21 of 1993?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And it was Miss Lauren Weis?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. And you gave a rather lengthy statement to

26 Miss Weis?

27 A. Yes, I did.

28 Q. Do you recall telling Miss Weis that —

5648

 

 

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; hearsay;

2 move to strike.

3 MR. SNEDDON: It’s foundational, or to

4 refresh her recollection.

5 THE COURT: If you want to refresh her

6 recollection with something, you can approach her

7 and show the item.

8 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Counsel, page 95,

9 lines 15 to 19.

10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Foundation, Your

11 Honor.

12 THE COURT: You have to ask her if it will

13 help refresh her recollection, or it might.

14 MR. SNEDDON: Can I show it to her first?

15 That’s the way counsel’s been doing it.

16 MR. MESEREAU: No, I haven’t at all.

17 THE COURT: Actually, he’s been asking them

18 if it would refresh their recollection if he showed

19 them something.

20 MR. SNEDDON: All right.

21 Q. Do you recall that conversation?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And — and it occurred at a point in time

24 when things were a lot fresher in your mind than

25 they are now?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Would it help, perhaps, if you looked at the

28 statement, that it might help refresh your

5649

 

 

1 recollection?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach the witness,

4 Your Honor?

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Just read it to yourself.

7 Start here and right down to here. How’s that?

8 Counsel, I’m having her read lines 11 to

9 line 25.

10 MR. MESEREAU: I’m going to object to that.

11 That’s improper refreshing of recollection and it’s

12 hearsay, foundational, to have her just read it.

13 MR. SNEDDON: That’s all I’m asking her to

14 do. I’m just trying to help you try to find out

15 where it is.

16 THE COURT: All right. Just let her look at

17 it. Counsel knows you can refresh a person’s

18 recollection with anything.

19 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I thought she was

20 reading it out loud. That was my mistake. I

21 withdraw the objection.

22 THE COURT: That would have been improper.

23 MR. SNEDDON: We’ve been down that road

24 before.

25 THE COURT: All right, I’m sorry. Did we —

26 where are we?

27 (Laughter.)

28 MR. SNEDDON: I know where we are.

5650

 

 

1 THE COURT: Is it break time yet? No.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry, Judge. You’re

4 going to have to suffer for six more minutes and

5 you’re not getting out of here a minute early.

6 Payback is you-know-what.

7 Q. All right. Mrs. Chandler, with regard to

8 whether or not the defendant was present, did that

9 refresh your recollection?

10 A. Yes, it does.

11 Q. And do you recall whether the defendant was

12 present?

13 A. He was present.

14 Q. And does it refresh — did the defendant,

15 Michael Jackson, make statements to you with regard

16 to the particular documents that you were being

17 asked to sign?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. And do you recall what he told you?

20 A. He was frantic. He was begging me to, “Come

21 over and sign this so there won’t be any lawsuits or

22 anything. Just sign it, sign it.”

23 Q. And, in effect, what you signed did what to

24 you personally?

25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;

26 foundation.

27 MR. SNEDDON: Let me go back, Judge. I

28 think I can correct this.

5651

 

 

1 Q. I am assuming you read the document before

2 you signed it?

3 A. Briefly.

4 Q. And you understood what it meant when you

5 were signing it?

6 A. Not really.

7 Q. Okay. You understood — well, let me ask

8 you this: Did you understand — if you didn’t

9 understand all of it, you understood some of it,

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Did you understand a part of it that had to

13 do with who was going to have custody for the

14 children temporarily?

15 A. Exactly, yes.

16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

17 THE COURT: Overruled.

18 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it wasn’t going to be you anymore?

21 A. Exactly.

22 Q. Did you sign that paper?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Mrs. Chandler, I neglected to ask you about

25 one other incident that occurred at Neverland Ranch,

26 okay?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. So pardon me if we can go back in time from

5652

 

 

1 where we are presently. And then we’re almost done,

2 okay?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Do you recall whether there was ever any

5 occasion where your brother and your sister-in-law

6 ever visited Neverland Valley Ranch?

7 A. Yes, I do recall.

8 Q. Do you know approximately when it was that

9 they visited Neverland Valley Ranch?

10 A. Approximately May.

11 Q. And do you know how long they were there?

12 A. For the day.

13 Q. Just came up for the day?

14 A. Yes. For the day.

15 Q. And do you recall, were you with them while

16 they were at the ranch?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Was Jordan at the ranch?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Where was Jordan?

21 A. With Michael.

22 Q. Now, do you remember about what time it was

23 when you left that day, you personally?

24 A. Before eight o’clock.

25 Q. Eight o’clock —

26 A. P.m.

27 Q. P.m. Now, do you recall seeing Mr. Jackson

28 and Jordan before you left?

5653

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And where did you see them?

3 A. They were in Michael Jackson’s bedroom.

4 Q. And do you recall — did you go into the

5 bedroom?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you go in there with your brother and

8 sister-in-law?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. And when you went into the bedroom, where

11 was Mr. Jackson?

12 A. In the bedroom with Jordan.

13 Q. Do you recall where?

14 A. Could be on the bed.

15 Q. You don’t remember specifically?

16 A. Not specifically.

17 Q. Okay. And Jordan, do you recall where he

18 was?

19 A. On the bed, too.

20 Q. Now, at some point in time, Mrs. Chandler,

21 your son Jordan Chandler was involved in a lawsuit,

22 Chandler versus Jackson, a civil lawsuit. Do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. And were you a participant in that lawsuit

26 as a representative of your son?

27 A. Yes, I was.

28 Q. And who was the lawyer who represented your

5654

 

 

1 son during the majority of that litigation?

2 A. Larry Feldman.

3 Q. And to your knowledge, was a lawsuit filed

4 on behalf of your son against the defendant, Michael

5 Jackson?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you assist or help Mr. Feldman in

8 the preparation of that lawsuit?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did you support your son during that

11 lawsuit?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Now, as a result of the lawsuit, did your

14 son — and please — don’t tell us the amount,

15 please. Did your son receive monetary compensation

16 from Mr. Jackson?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. Now, also as a result of that lawsuit, did

19 you receive some monetary compensation?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did you ever ask to be compensated in any

22 way as a result of what had happened?

23 A. No.

24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Foundation; and

25 hearsay.

26 THE COURT: All right. Overruled.

27 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: You did not?

28 A. No.

5655

 

 

1 Q. And where did the idea for you receiving

2 compensation come from, to your knowledge?

3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, to the extent it

4 calls for hearsay.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: As a result of this

7 lawsuit, did you receive money?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Did you have to sign something in exchange

10 for that money?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And what did you sign?

13 A. A disclosure agreement.

14 Q. And what does that mean?

15 A. Confidentiality agreement.

16 THE COURT: All right. Let’s take our break.

17 (Recess taken.)

18 THE COURT: Go ahead.

19 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Mrs. Chandler, I just have

20 a couple of questions.

21 I want to go back to something we talked

22 about before. You told the jury that the defendant,

23 Michael Jackson, gave you a gift certificate at one

24 point in time?

25 A. Correct.

26 Q. And it was to Segal?

27 A. Fred Segal is a store in Santa Monica.

28 Q. Okay. And what was the amount of that

5656

 

 

1 certificate?

2 A. $7,000.

3 Q. Okay. Now, let’s just go back and finish up

4 the last part of what we were talking about.

5 With regard to the lawsuit, you signed some

6 kind of an agreement, correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. In exchange for that, you were given some

9 money?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall, based upon what you know,

12 what the agreement was, what it required of you?

13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What did you give up in

16 return for receiving money?

17 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection. Hearsay and

18 foundation.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you read the agreement

21 before you signed it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who presented it to you?

24 A. Larry Feldman.

25 Q. Did he go over it with you before you signed

26 it?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And you understood what you were signing?

5657

 

 

1 A. Yes, we did.

2 Q. And you read the document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what did it require you to do in order

5 to obtain money from the defendant, Mr. Jackson?

6 You personally.

7 A. We couldn’t —

8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay and

9 foundation.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Have you ever written any

12 books —

13 A. Never.

14 Q. — about what happened?

15 A. No, I have not.

16 Q. Did any interviews?

17 A. Never.

18 Q. Made any money selling anything —

19 A. No.

20 Q. — about your experience?

21 A. No.

22 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further.

23 THE COURT: Cross-examine?

24 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.

25

26 CROSS-EXAMINATION

27 BY MR. MESEREAU:

28 Q. Mrs. Chandler, my name is Tom Mesereau and I

5658

 

 

1 speak for Michael Jackson, okay?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If anything I ask you is not clear, please

4 don’t answer. Just say you don’t understand it, and

5 I’ll try to rephrase it, okay?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Now, in response to the prosecutor’s

8 questions, you said you entered into a stipulation

9 regarding custody of your son Jordie, correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And in response to the prosecutor’s

12 questions, you said you did it because Michael

13 Jackson told you to do it, right?

14 A. One of the people. He was one.

15 Q. Well, do you remember signing a sworn

16 declaration regarding that stipulation?

17 A. I remember signing something about custody

18 of Jordie.

19 Q. Do you remember signing a sworn declaration

20 in which you said the only reason you signed the

21 stipulation was because your ex-husband wouldn’t

22 return Jordie to you if you didn’t, right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And you said further, you thought the

25 stipulation was merely for a one-week visitation

26 period, right?

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. Nowhere in that declaration did you say

5659

 

 

1 anything about Michael Jackson telling you to sign

2 anything, right?

3 A. That’s not correct.

4 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look

5 at your declaration?

6 A. I’d be happy to.

7 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

8 THE COURT: Yes.

9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Chandler, have you

10 had a chance to look at that sworn declaration?

11 A. Yes, I have.

12 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what

13 you said in the declaration?

14 A. Sort of.

15 Q. Isn’t it true you said the only reason you

16 signed it was because your ex-husband told you that

17 if you didn’t sign the stipulation, you would not

18 have Jordan returned to you, right?

19 A. That’s correct.

20 Q. You said that was the only reason, correct?

21 A. That’s not the only reason.

22 Q. Well, you signed it under penalty of

23 perjury, did you not?

24 A. I wasn’t asked who else was asking me to

25 sign it.

26 Q. Who prepared the declaration for you to

27 sign?

28 A. Evan Chandler’s attorney.

5660

 

 

1 Q. Were you represented by counsel when you

2 signed this declaration?

3 A. Oooh. I might have been.

4 Q. You actually were, weren’t you?

5 A. I — I don’t recall.

6 Q. You were represented by counsel because you

7 were trying to set aside the stipulation in court,

8 right?

9 MR. SNEDDON: Well, Your Honor, I’m going to

10 object to that. That’s misleading as to point and

11 time, and vague.

12 MR. MESEREAU: It’s not misleading at all.

13 MR. SNEDDON: Wait a minute, Counsel.

14 Judge, I object as vague as to time as to

15 when she was represented.

16 THE COURT: All right. I’ll sustain the

17 objection. It’s an argumentative question.

18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Chandler, at some

19 point you hired a lawyer to help you set aside that

20 stipulation, right?

21 A. I don’t know if that was the reason why an

22 attorney was hired, if it was for that reason.

23 Q. And your attorney prepared your declaration,

24 true?

25 A. I don’t recall.

26 Q. Do you recall if the stipulation was ever

27 set aside by your attorney?

28 A. I don’t recall.

5661

 

 

1 Q. Do you recall being represented by an

2 attorney named Freeman?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And who is Mr. Freeman?

5 A. He’s an attorney that represented me for a

6 short time.

7 Q. Do you recall asking Michael Jackson if he

8 would loan David Schwartz four million dollars?

9 A. Never.

10 Q. You say you never did that?

11 A. Never did that.

12 Q. Okay. Do you recall your ex-husband David

13 Schwartz asking you to do that?

14 A. Never.

15 Q. Do you recall him being five million dollars

16 in debt around the time you were associating with

17 Michael Jackson?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Don’t recall that at all?

20 A. Not at all.

21 Q. Okay. When you sued Michael Jackson, you

22 sued through Larry Feldman, true?

23 A. I did not sue Michael Jackson. Jordan

24 Chandler and his family were — that was his family.

25 We did not sue Michael Jackson.

26 Q. Okay. So you never sued him yourself,

27 you’re saying?

28 A. I don’t believe that’s how it was worded.

5662

 

 

1 Q. Okay. Do you recall meetings with your

2 attorney about that lawsuit?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Now, you — you and Jordan’s father Evan

5 were divorced in 1985, true?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And you obtained sole custody of Jordan,

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you had an informal arrangement where

11 Evan could have custody or at least visitation

12 rights of Jordie from time to time, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. What year did you marry David Schwartz?

15 A. 1985.

16 Q. Now, is it correct that he became Jordan’s

17 stepfather?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And for how long was he Jordie’s stepfather?

20 A. For approximately six to eight years.

21 Q. What year did he cease to be Jordie’s

22 stepfather?

23 A. When we divorced.

24 Q. And what year was that?

25 A. 1994.

26 Q. And how old is Jordie now?

27 A. He is 25 years old.

28 Q. Can I ask you when you last spoke to him?

5663

 

 

1 A. 11 years ago.

2 Q. At one point, David Schwartz sued Michael

3 Jackson, correct?

4 A. I don’t recall.

5 Q. Do you recall him suing Michael Jackson

6 claiming that Michael had interfered with his

7 business?

8 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

9 object as immaterial; irrelevant; calls for hearsay.

10 THE WITNESS: I don’t recall.

11 THE COURT: It’s vague as to time.

12 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I’ll rephrase it, Your

13 Honor.

14 Q. Around the time you and Evan and Jordie sued

15 Michael Jackson with Attorney Larry Feldman, do you

16 recall your ex-husband, David Schwartz, also suing

17 Michael Jackson?

18 MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.

19 THE WITNESS: I don’t recall.

20 THE COURT: Overruled.

21 You may answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I don’t recall.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you recall, in

24 response to your lawsuit, Mr. Jackson suing for

25 extortion?

26 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

27 object to that question.

28 THE COURT: Sustained. Foundation.

5664

 

 

1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You sued Michael Jackson,

2 right?

3 A. Jordan Chandler sued Michael Jackson.

4 Q. Were you listed as a plaintiff?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in response to your suit, Mr. Jackson

7 sued for extortion, true?

8 A. I don’t recall.

9 Q. Okay. Were you and Evan and Jordie all

10 represented by Larry Feldman?

11 A. Yes, we were.

12 Q. Do you know approximately when that suit

13 settled?

14 A. I guess in ’95.

15 Q. Do you recall Evan suing Mr. Jackson a

16 second time?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Don’t know anything about that?

19 A. Nothing.

20 Q. Never heard about it?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know who Attorney Barry Rothman is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who is Attorney Barry Rothman?

25 A. He was Evan Chandler’s attorney.

26 Q. Do you recall Attorney Barry Rothman also

27 suing Michael Jackson?

28 A. No, I don’t.

5665

 

 

1 Q. Okay. Now, during your trips with Michael

2 Jackson, do you recall the name “Sony” ever being

3 mentioned?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in what context was Sony mentioned?

6 A. The gifts that Michael Jackson gave were

7 from Sony. Sony recorders. We flew on the Sony

8 jet. That’s what I remember.

9 Q. And do you recall, around the time you were

10 associating with Michael Jackson, that Michael

11 Jackson had an endorsement deal with PepsiCo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to your knowledge, that was the most

14 lucrative endorsement deal anyone in the music

15 business had ever entered into with PepsiCo,

16 correct?

17 A. I didn’t know that.

18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that’s immaterial

19 and irrelevant.

20 THE COURT: Foundation; sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall learning

22 from Michael Jackson that he owned an interest in

23 The Beatles’ catalog?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you discuss that with Mr. Jackson?

26 A. Never.

27 Q. Did you discuss his deal with PepsiCo with

28 Mr. Jackson?

5666

 

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you filed your lawsuit against Mr.

3 Jackson, your attorney was threatening to ruin Mr.

4 Jackson’s music deals, correct?

5 A. No. Not that I recall.

6 Q. You don’t recall that at all?

7 A. Not at all.

8 Q. Do you recall participating in settlement

9 negotiations?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you participated in settlement

12 negotiations, where did you used to meet?

13 A. Larry Feldman’s offices.

14 Q. When did you last talk to Larry Feldman?

15 A. Oh, a few days ago.

16 Q. Did you talk about what you were going to

17 say in court?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you talk about what he said in court?

20 A. Briefly.

21 Q. Did he call you or did you call him?

22 A. I called him.

23 Q. Before this discussion a few days ago, when

24 was the last time before that you had spoken to

25 Larry Feldman?

26 A. Oh, um, maybe two months before that.

27 Q. And did you talk to him about this case in

28 that discussion?

5667

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you talk to him about what you were

3 going to say?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you call him or did he call you?

6 A. I called him.

7 Q. Did you talk on the phone with him or did

8 you meet with him?

9 A. Yes, talk on the phone.

10 Q. Before that discussion, when had you last

11 spoken to Attorney Larry Feldman?

12 A. Perhaps ten years ago.

13 Q. Okay. But you never discussed anything

14 about this case in those discussions, right?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you never talked about what you were

17 going to be asked in this courtroom in any of those

18 discussions, right?

19 A. Not to that effect, no.

20 Q. Did Mr. Feldman tell you he represents the

21 Arvizos in either of those discussions?

22 A. I don’t know what that is.

23 Q. Okay. So he never talked about his

24 representing anyone associated with this case,

25 besides you, right?

26 A. Correct.

27 Q. Now, you said something in response to the

28 prosecutor’s questions about your son changing the

5668

 

 

1 way he dressed at one point, right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Didn’t your son used to try and dress like

4 Michael Jackson before he even met him?

5 A. When he was very young.

6 Q. Did you meet with the prosecutor before you

7 testified today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did you meet with the prosecutor to

10 talk about anything you said today?

11 A. Two days ago.

12 Q. And where was that meeting?

13 A. In downtown L.A.

14 Q. And who did you meet with?

15 A. With my attorney.

16 Q. And who is your attorney?

17 A. Brad Barnholtz.

18 Q. Who else did you meet with?

19 A. Tom Sneddon.

20 Q. Okay. How long a discussion was that?

21 A. Oh, perhaps an hour and a half.

22 Q. Did you talk about what you were going to

23 say today?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did Mr. Sneddon go over some questions that

26 he was going to ask you?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Did you ever go over some answers that you

5669

 

 

1 were going to give?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When had you met with Mr. Sneddon before

4 that meeting?

5 A. Never.

6 Q. Have you talked to him on the phone?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many times?

9 A. Once or twice.

10 Q. Okay. Now, where did you first meet Michael

11 Jackson?

12 A. At Rent-A-Wreck. The business of my

13 ex-husband.

14 Q. And that was the day that Mr. Jackson had a

15 problem with his car, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And when did you see him after that

18 initial meeting?

19 A. I guess maybe approximately a few months

20 after that.

21 Q. The first meeting was approximately August

22 ’92, right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Okay. And when do you think the next

25 meeting was?

26 A. Perhaps maybe in February.

27 Q. Okay. And again, how did that meeting

28 happen? Who called who?

5670

 

 

1 A. How did the meeting —

2 Q. The second meeting. The first time you saw

3 him when he had a problem with his car, right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And then there was a meeting after that?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. How did that happen?

8 A. Through phone conversations with my son.

9 And he — and Michael Jackson invited us to

10 Neverland.

11 Q. Okay. How did you get to Neverland?

12 A. By car. By my car. I drove.

13 Q. Okay. And did you stay over at Neverland

14 that first time?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. How long did you stay?

17 A. I would say for two nights. One or two

18 nights.

19 Q. Okay. And your daughter was there as well,

20 right?

21 A. Yes, she was.

22 Q. Okay. And you said that you, your daughter,

23 your son, stayed in the guesthouses, correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Now, what did you do during the day during

26 that visit, during the two days you were there?

27 A. We watched movies. We went on rides. We

28 visited his zoo. Things like that.

5671

 

 

1 Q. Okay. And how did you get home? Did you

2 drive?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. When did you next talk to Michael Jackson

5 after that?

6 A. Oh, I think probably the day after we got

7 back.

8 Q. Did he call you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Did you talk to him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when did you get together again?

13 A. Perhaps a week later. A week or two later.

14 Q. Did you go to Neverland again?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. How did you get there?

17 A. He drove. His — sorry, his chauffeur

18 drove.

19 Q. Okay. And did you stay over —

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. — on that second trip?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And how long was your stay over there?

24 A. A couple of nights.

25 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you did on that

26 second trip?

27 A. Same thing.

28 Q. Okay. Did you see Michael very often on the

5672

 

 

1 first trip?

2 A. The whole time, yes.

3 Q. Did you see him —

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. — very often on the second trip?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you said you went to the zoo and did

8 these fun things, was Michael always with you?

9 A. The first and second time?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Basically, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Did you have dinner in the main house

13 with Michael?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And of course your children were there too,

16 right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. After that second trip, when did you next

19 have contact with Michael, if you remember?

20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

21 object to the use of the first name.

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll say “Michael Jackson,”

24 Your Honor.

25 Q. After your second visit to Neverland, did

26 you have further contact with Michael Jackson?

27 A. Yes, I did.

28 Q. And please explain what your next contact

5673

 

 

1 was all about.

2 A. I don’t know if that was the time we again

3 went to Neverland or we had taken a trip to Las

4 Vegas.

5 Q. Now, in your discussion with the Los Angeles

6 District Attorney in 1993, you talked about your

7 visits with Mr. Jackson, right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Have you looked at that transcript recently?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you last look at the transcript?

12 A. Briefly, today.

13 Q. And how did you get a copy of it?

14 A. Through Mr. Sneddon.

15 Q. Okay. Did he ask you to read it today?

16 A. Did he ask me to read it today?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did he ask you to read it at any time?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. And when was that?

22 A. Last week.

23 Q. Did he give you anything else to read before

24 you testified?

25 A. That’s it.

26 Q. Okay. And did you read it from cover to

27 cover?

28 A. Tried.

5674

 

 

1 Q. Pardon me?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Okay. You told the District Attorney

4 in Los Angeles when describing your first trip

5 there, “Michael Jackson wasn’t the superstar. He

6 was a regular person, and we couldn’t believe how

7 nice he was,” right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And you said that after you got there, he

10 offered to let you stay over, correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Your plan initially wasn’t to stay over,

13 right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. You said that first night, Jordie actually

16 knocked at your door and said he was going to stay

17 with you, right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. So the first night he stayed with you and

20 your daughter, right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Okay. Now, when did you go to Toys-R-Us

23 with Michael Jackson?

24 A. Could have been the first visit or the

25 second visit.

26 Q. Okay. And did Michael Jackson offer to take

27 you there?

28 A. Yes.

5675

 

 

1 Q. And he did take you there, right?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Did he drive or did you have a driver take

4 you there, do you know?

5 A. We must have had a driver.

6 Q. Okay. Now, at one time, did you visit Roy

7 Disney’s widow with Michael?

8 A. Never.

9 Q. Okay. At some point you told the Los

10 Angeles District Attorney that Michael was visiting

11 Roy Disney’s widow in Beverly Hills; do you remember

12 that?

13 A. Not really, but I don’t recall.

14 Q. Do you recall telling that to the Los

15 Angeles District Attorney?

16 A. I don’t recall.

17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to let

18 you see that page?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

24 look at that?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what

27 you told the Los Angeles District Attorney?

28 A. Yes.

5676

 

 

1 Q. And what did you tell them about that?

2 A. I said that I was — we had left and Michael

3 was — I had left Neverland with Jordie and Lily,

4 and he was going to visit Roy Disney’s widow.

5 Q. Okay. Now, was that while you were visiting

6 Neverland?

7 A. After we left.

8 MR. SNEDDON: Object as to vague as to time

9 as to what visit.

10 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it.

11 Q. During what visit did Michael Jackson tell

12 you he had to visit Roy Disney’s widow?

13 A. The first visit.

14 MR. SNEDDON: Object as to hearsay.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was it the first visit?

17 A. I think so.

18 Q. Do you recall if you and your family stayed

19 at Neverland while Mr. Jackson left the premises?

20 A. I don’t recall that.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall him making a trip like

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. You talked about gifts that Mr.

25 Jackson gave you, okay?

26 A. Okay.

27 Q. Did you ever ask for any of those gifts?

28 A. No.

5677

 

 

1 Q. Did he just give them to you on his own

2 initiative as far as you’re concerned?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Tell us all the gifts you recall him

5 giving you.

6 A. A gold bracelet. A pair of earrings. A

7 necklace. A ring. A gift certificate to a

8 boutique. That’s what I recall.

9 Q. Okay. And you said he gave you his credit

10 card to use?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did he do that more than once?

13 A. He might have, yes.

14 Q. And do you recall what you bought with

15 Michael Jackson’s credit card?

16 A. I know I — I think two handbags.

17 Q. Anything else?

18 A. Not that I recall, no.

19 Q. Okay. How many nights do you recall Mr.

20 Jackson staying at your house?

21 A. To the best of my recollection, 30 nights.

22 Q. And approximately what time period was that,

23 if you know?

24 A. Beginning the middle of April till the end

25 of May.

26 Q. Were you at your house on every evening that

27 Michael Jackson stayed over?

28 A. Yes.

5678

 

 

1 Q. You said something to the effect, I believe,

2 that Mr. Jackson would leave during the day?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Do you know where he went?

5 A. Not really. I —

6 Q. Did you ever ask him?

7 A. Sometimes.

8 Q. Okay. And where did he tell you he was

9 going?

10 A. Going home.

11 Q. To Neverland?

12 A. Working. No, not to Neverland. I think his

13 hideout, to his place that he calls “The Hideout” in

14 Century City.

15 Q. That’s the place you visited, correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. How many times were you at that apartment?

18 A. Approximately three or four times.

19 Q. Okay. When you went to the apartment that

20 you’ve described as Michael Jackson’s hideout, were

21 you always with your son?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you ever with anyone else?

24 A. Not that I recall.

25 Q. Okay. You indicated you met someone named

26 Brett Barnes at Neverland, right?

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. Do you know when you first met him?

5679

 

 

1 A. It could have been the second time that we

2 were going to Neverland.

3 Q. And he was actually in the limousine that

4 Michael Jackson sent to pick you up, right?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Was that the first time you had met him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Was that the trip you went to

9 Disneyland?

10 A. It could be, yes.

11 Q. And was Brett Barnes with you on that trip?

12 A. I would assume so. I’m — I don’t recall.

13 Q. Do you know if his mother was there on that

14 trip?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So it was you, Michael Jackson, your two

17 children, and Brett, right?

18 A. Perhaps Brett.

19 Q. You’re not sure?

20 A. Exactly.

21 Q. Did you go back to Neverland after the trip

22 to Disneyland?

23 A. I don’t recall.

24 Q. Okay. You indicated you met someone named

25 Joy, right?

26 A. Correct.

27 Q. And when did you meet someone named Joy?

28 A. Later on, in — could be May. April or May.

5680

 

 

1 Q. And where did you meet her?

2 A. At Neverland.

3 Q. Okay. Was she staying there when you stayed

4 there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did she have a son, to your knowledge?

7 A. Yes, she did.

8 Q. And who was that?

9 A. Wade.

10 Q. Okay. How often did you see Joy Robeson and

11 Wade Robeson at Neverland?

12 A. I remember seeing Joy once. And Wade, I —

13 it could be a few times. I don’t recall.

14 Q. When you were at Neverland at the same time

15 that they were there, did you associate with them?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And what did you do with them?

18 A. I had dinner with Joy, where we talked. And

19 with Wade, if we went — if there was a movie

20 playing, I guess he was with us also.

21 Q. When Michael Jackson used to stay at your

22 home, were you in the middle of a divorce

23 proceeding?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you separated?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Did you used to discuss your problems with

28 David Schwartz with Michael Jackson?

5681

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You actually had a lot of discussions,

3 didn’t you?

4 A. Not a lot.

5 Q. You told him it was a poor relationship,

6 didn’t you?

7 A. What was a poor relationship?

8 Q. Your relationship with David Schwartz.

9 A. I told whom? I’m sorry.

10 Q. Michael Jackson.

11 A. Oh. No. I — I don’t — I didn’t get into

12 my relationship about David Schwartz to Michael.

13 Q. So you never discussed it with Michael

14 Jackson?

15 A. I just said that we were separated and these

16 were not wonderful times for us.

17 Q. And you would discuss with him from time to

18 time the problems you were having, wouldn’t you?

19 A. No. No, I wouldn’t.

20 MR. SNEDDON: Object as irrelevant, Your

21 Honor, not to mention hearsay.

22 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was,

23 “No.” Next question.

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During those 30 nights

25 that Michael Jackson stayed at your house, did he

26 have dinner at your house?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And was it usually you, he, your son and

5682

 

 

1 daughter at dinner?

2 A. At times.

3 Q. Who else would join you for dinner?

4 A. That’s it.

5 Q. Did you ever have dinner yourself, without

6 your children, just with Michael Jackson?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you ever traveled with Michael Jackson

9 without your children?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When did you go to Las Vegas with Michael

12 Jackson?

13 A. Around the end of March.

14 Q. And what was the purpose of that trip?

15 A. I guess Steve Wynn, the owner of the Mirage

16 Hotel, invited Michael to come and stay and vacation

17 in Las Vegas for a few days.

18 Q. And did you meet Mr. Wynn while you were

19 there?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. How long were you in Las Vegas for that

22 trip?

23 A. Two or three nights.

24 Q. And again, how did you get there?

25 A. Steve Wynn’s jet.

26 Q. And did his jet take you back home

27 afterwards?

28 A. Yes.

5683

 

 

1 Q. All right. When you went to Las Vegas on

2 Steve Wynn’s jet, had Michael Jackson begun to stay

3 over at your home?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did Michael Jackson begin to stay at your

6 home after that trip to Las Vegas?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, did you travel with Michael Jackson to

9 any other cities in America during this period of

10 time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you travel to?

13 A. To Florida and New York.

14 Q. Was that Orlando, Florida?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And when did that trip happen,

17 approximately?

18 A. Oh, approximately April, I guess.

19 Q. And what was the purpose of that trip, if

20 you know?

21 A. To go to Disney World.

22 Q. Did you do that?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. How long a trip was that?

25 A. A couple of days.

26 Q. And then did you come back?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. The rooms in your hotel, describe the rooms,

5684

 

 

1 if you would.

2 A. I don’t remember The Grand Floridian, what

3 the rooms were like.

4 Q. And did you have your own room?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did Michael Jackson have his own room?

7 A. Yes, he did.

8 Q. And did your children have their own room?

9 A. I’m not sure.

10 Q. Do you know where your children stayed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did they stay?

13 A. Jordie, my son, stayed with Michael, and

14 Lily stayed with me.

15 Q. And did you ever object, during that trip,

16 to your son staying with Michael?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You never suspected anything improper was

19 going on on that trip, correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. You mentioned some children from New Jersey

22 that you met at Neverland, right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And who were they again?

25 A. Frank and Eddie Cascio.

26 Q. Okay. And did you ever meet their parents?

27 A. No.

28 Q. When did you first see them at Neverland?

5685

 

 

1 A. I don’t recall. Could be the third visit to

2 Neverland. Fourth visit.

3 Q. When was the first time your son Jordan

4 asked if he could sleep with Michael Jackson?

5 A. I would say starting the third visit to

6 Neverland, second or third visit to Neverland,

7 because there were always boys around and staying in

8 his bedroom, and why couldn’t he? And that’s when

9 he started asking.

10 Q. And was it your understanding that there

11 were a lot of kids hanging around Michael Jackson’s

12 bedroom?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see —

15 A. Boys.

16 Q. Excuse me. Did you see a lot of kids at

17 Neverland while you were there?

18 A. A lot of Michael’s —

19 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me.

20 Object as to vague.

21 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it. Let’s go

22 through the first trip.

23 Q. Did you see a lot of kids at Neverland

24 during your first trip?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Did you see a lot of kids at Neverland

27 during your second trip?

28 A. No.

5686

 

 

1 Q. How many other children at Neverland did you

2 see on your first trip?

3 A. No other kids on the first trip.

4 Q. How many kids at Neverland did you see on

5 your second trip?

6 A. One.

7 Q. How about your third trip?

8 A. Third — Frank and Eddie Cascio.

9 Q. Any other children on the third trip?

10 A. It could have been Macaulay Culkin also.

11 Q. Okay. Did you meet Macaulay Culkin at

12 Neverland?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Macaulay Culkin doesn’t look at all like

15 your son, does he?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you meet Macaulay’s parents?

18 A. Father.

19 Q. At Neverland?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that was, you think, the third trip?

22 A. Could be. Could have been.

23 Q. Did you ever see him at Neverland again?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When did you next see Macaulay Culkin at

26 Neverland?

27 A. Fourth or fifth visit.

28 Q. Was anyone else from his family there; do

5687

 

 

1 you know?

2 A. His brothers were there.

3 Q. Okay. Was it your understanding that the

4 Culkins were good friends of Michael Jackson?

5 A. That Macaulay Culkin was good friends with

6 Michael Jackson.

7 Q. What about his family? Was it your

8 understanding his family were close friends of

9 Michael Jackson?

10 A. Not close friends.

11 Q. Did you really know?

12 A. It didn’t appear that they were close

13 friends, no.

14 Q. Do you know if his parents used to visit

15 Neverland?

16 A. His father used to visit Neverland with

17 Macaulay.

18 Q. Did you hang out with them when you were at

19 Neverland?

20 A. Did I hang out with —

21 Q. The Culkins.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then how would you know whether or not they

24 were close with Michael Jackson?

25 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

26 object as argumentative.

27 THE COURT: Sustained.

28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were in Las Vegas

5688

 

 

1 with Mr. Jackson, you went to Cirque du Soleil,

2 correct?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Did your son?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. And did your daughter go as well?

7 A. To Cirque du Soleil?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. No, she did not.

10 Q. Did you have any problem at that time

11 letting your son go to Cirque du Soleil with Mr.

12 Jackson?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And did your son stay with Mr. Jackson that

15 evening, to your knowledge?

16 A. To my knowledge, yes.

17 Q. Okay. You told the prosecutor that Mr.

18 Jackson got upset at one point about your not

19 trusting him, right?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And he said words to you to the effect that,

22 “We’re family,” right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. You suggested that you let Jordie sleep

25 wherever he wants to sleep, right?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And you told him, “Look, I’ve had two

28 husbands that I can’t trust,” right?

5689

 

 

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You said, “I think you’re a wonderful

3 person, but I can’t let my trust down,” right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And you described Michael as saying that he

6 was going to take care of you, right?

7 A. No.

8 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, excuse me, I’m

9 going to object as vague as to point in time of the

10 conversation.

11 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. Sure.

12 Q. When was the conversation where Michael got

13 upset because he didn’t think you trusted him?

14 A. In Las Vegas in the hotel room.

15 Q. Okay. You said to Michael, “I’ve had males

16 in my life that, you know, have disappointed me.

17 How can I have you in my life and you’re saying that

18 you’re going to take care of us, that you’re so

19 wonderful, everything’s going to be okay, how am I

20 going to do that?”

21 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

22 object to counsel reading from the document.

23 MR. MESEREAU: I haven’t finished the

24 question yet, Your Honor.

25 MR. SNEDDON: Well, he’s reading —

26 THE COURT: Well, all right, what is the

27 question?

28 MR. MESEREAU: I was going to ask her if she

5690

 

 

1 made that statement.

2 THE COURT: All right. You may.

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you make a statement

4 to that effect?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Michael said to you he wanted a family

7 to just treat him like a regular person, right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. He said he didn’t want to be like a

10 stranger, right?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And he asked you to trust him, right?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Do you remember telling the District

15 Attorney in Los Angeles that when you talked to your

16 ex-husband Evan about Michael Jackson’s relationship

17 with your family, that Evan saw this as a wonderful

18 means for Jordie not having to worry for the rest of

19 his life?

20 A. Would you repeat your question?

21 Q. Yes. Didn’t you tell the Los Angeles

22 District Attorney that your ex-husband Evan, the

23 father of Jordie, told you that the relationship

24 with Michael was a wonderful means of Jordie not

25 having to worry for the rest of his life?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And to you, that meant Michael Jackson

28 supporting you financially for the rest of your

5691

 

 

1 life, correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. That’s what you thought your ex-husband

4 meant by it, true?

5 MR. SNEDDON: Calls for speculation.

6 THE WITNESS: Speculation.

7 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.

8 (Laughter.)

9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Just asking you what you

10 thought, not what your ex-husband thought.

11 A. Well, I’m speculating also. I would be

12 speculating if I answered.

13 Q. Well, if someone says to you, “This is a

14 wonderful way not to have to worry for the rest of

15 our life,” doesn’t that suggest that maybe someone

16 is thinking about Michael Jackson supporting you?

17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

18 object. We just went through this. Calls for

19 speculation.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you go to France

22 and Monaco with Michael Jackson?

23 A. In May.

24 Q. Did he invite you?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Did he invite your whole family?

27 A. Jordan and Lily, yes.

28 Q. At one point you said that Michael Jackson

5692

 

 

1 stayed at your ex-husband’s house when Jordan was

2 there, correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And to your knowledge, was your ex-husband

5 at the house when Michael Jackson stayed there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many days, to your knowledge, did

8 Michael Jackson stay at your ex-husband’s house?

9 A. Approximately four to seven days.

10 Q. To your knowledge, was that consecutive or

11 were they periodic visits?

12 A. Consecutive.

13 Q. And do you recall anything about your

14 ex-husband wanting Michael Jackson to finance a wing

15 on his house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And to your knowledge, Michael Jackson never

18 did that, right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, at that point in time, Jordan’s father

21 Evan was writing a screenplay, right?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And to your knowledge, he was spending a lot

24 of time on that screenplay, right?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And you were complaining that he wasn’t

27 spending enough time with his son, right?

28 A. Correct.

5693

 

 

1 Q. At the time you were happy that Michael was

2 around, because Jordan’s father was not spending

3 time with him, and you were separated from David,

4 correct?

5 A. True.

6 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as to

7 vague as to what time, time period. We have several

8 months here.

9 MR. MESEREAU: Well, I can —

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

12 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike the answer.

13 THE COURT: Stricken.

14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did there come a time when

15 you were happy that Michael Jackson was around,

16 because your ex-husband Evan was spending time

17 writing a screenplay and you were separated from

18 David?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Approximately what — when was that?

21 A. In the beginning I was happy.

22 Q. Okay. When did Michael go to Cartier and

23 buy you that jewelry?

24 A. When we went to Las Vegas.

25 Q. Was he with you when he did that?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Did he do it on his own?

28 A. He did it with Jordie.

5694

 

 

1 Q. Okay. And did he come back and give it to

2 you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you described that to the Los

5 Angeles District Attorney as a love bracelet, did

6 you not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that what it was?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is a love bracelet?

11 A. It’s a bracelet that’s a gold bracelet and

12 that’s what it’s called.

13 Q. Okay. Had you ever told Michael Jackson you

14 liked that kind of jewelry?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you surprised when he bought it for

17 you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that during that

20 trip, you went to the David Copperfield show; is

21 that right?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And who went to that show?

24 A. Jordan, Lily and Michael.

25 Q. Did the four of you have dinner that night

26 together?

27 A. I don’t recall.

28 Q. Okay. Did Michael give you his credit card

5695

 

 

1 on that trip?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. At some point did you all see an

4 Exorcist movie?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you recall anyone watching an Exorcist

7 movie?

8 A. I was told Jordan and Michael watched an

9 Exorcist movie.

10 Q. All right. Did you ever object to Jordie

11 sleeping in Michael’s room on that trip?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what did you say?

14 A. “Jordie, when you come home, go to your bed.

15 Go to your own bed. Come to our bed, not to

16 Michael’s bed.”

17 He said, “Mom, I want to stay there.” And I

18 was very upset about that.

19 Q. Now, this was before the approximately 30

20 nights that he stayed at your home —

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. — in Santa Monica, right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And you did allow him to stay at your home

25 in Santa Monica, right?

26 A. Afterwards.

27 Q. Now, you mentioned in your interview that

28 when Michael Jackson’s not working, he’s a lonely

5696

 

 

1 person, correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And you also mentioned that the Cascios

4 owned a restaurant, true?

5 A. True.

6 Q. How did you know they owned a restaurant?

7 A. I was — I don’t recall how I knew.

8 Q. And do you remember telling the District

9 Attorney that Michael would help Jordie with his

10 homework?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Would he do that at your home?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said he played a lot like a child,

15 correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And he seemed to play at Neverland a lot

18 like a child, correct?

19 A. Yeah, yes.

20 Q. You mentioned Tommy and Merdie. Do you

21 remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who are Tommy and Merdie?

24 A. Merdie; are my brother and sister-in-law.

25 Q. Okay. At some point you stayed in Santa

26 Monica with them, correct?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Was Michael Jackson there?

5697

 

 

1 A. He was there.

2 Q. Did Michael Jackson stay with you at their

3 home?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did he stay at their home?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did he stay at your home?

8 A. Not that time, no. Not at that time.

9 Q. And you stayed in Santa Monica with Tommy

10 and Merdie?

11 A. Meredith. Merdie.

12 Q. Merdie, okay. You stayed with them at one

13 point, right?

14 A. They stayed with me.

15 Q. Oh, they stayed with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was Michael Jackson there that night?

18 A. I don’t recall, no.

19 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did Michael

20 Jackson ever meet Tommy and Merdie?

21 A. I don’t recall.

22 Q. Okay. Now, when Michael Jackson was staying

23 at your home in Santa Monica during those 30 days

24 that you mentioned, was Jordan in school?

25 A. Yes, he was.

26 Q. Was he going to school each day?

27 A. Yes, he was.

28 Q. Okay. You mentioned Steve and Jo Ellen. Do

5698

 

 

1 you remember that?

2 A. Do I remember mentioning —

3 Q. Mentioning Steve and Jo Ellen to the

4 District Attorney?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who are Steve and Jo Ellen?

7 A. Steve is also my brother, and his wife Jo

8 Ellen.

9 Q. Did they visit you in Santa Monica during

10 the time that Michael Jackson was staying over?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You said that they witnessed Michael Jackson

13 and Jordie in the bedroom, didn’t they?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. At Neverland.

17 Q. Did they stay there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Did they go into Michael Jackson’s

20 bedroom?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. And did you go into Michael Jackson’s

23 bedroom?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many times do you think you went into

26 Michael Jackson’s bedroom at Neverland?

27 A. It stopped after maybe the tenth time.

28 Q. Okay. Describe, if you would for the jury,

5699

 

 

1 what Michael Jackson’s bedroom looks like?

2 A. Lots of dolls. Lots of playthings. It

3 looks like a boy’s room, big boy’s room. Lots of

4 toys and things.

5 Q. Is it a big area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How big would you describe it as, if you

8 can?

9 A. Oh, it’s a long time ago.

10 Q. Was it kind of huge?

11 A. Well, there’s an upstairs and a downstairs.

12 Yes, it’s kind of huge.

13 Q. When you used to visit Michael Jackson’s

14 bedroom, would you see other people in there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who do you remember seeing in there?

17 A. The Cascio brothers. Macaulay. Brett.

18 Wade.

19 Q. And you saw their parents in there, too,

20 didn’t you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you ever see Macaulay’s father in there?

23 A. In the bedroom?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. No.

26 Q. And why were you in the bedroom those ten

27 times?

28 A. Because I’m Jordie’s mother. I’m allowed to

5700

 

 

1 go into the bedroom.

2 Q. Were you dropping clothes off?

3 A. Oh, I might have. I don’t recall.

4 Q. Did you ever sit down and watch T.V. or

5 anything in there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How often did you do that?

8 A. A few times.

9 Q. Did you ever have food delivered to you in

10 Michael Jackson’s bedroom?

11 A. I don’t recall.

12 Q. Okay. Did David Schwartz, to your

13 knowledge, ever visit Neverland?

14 A. No. No.

15 Q. Okay. When you were in Monaco with Michael

16 Jackson, what did you do?

17 A. We went to an awards ceremony. We — well,

18 Jordie and Michael — Jordie and Michael were sick,

19 so Lily and I went shopping and drove around. We

20 were driven around.

21 Q. Did Michael Jackson pay for the whole trip?

22 A. Yes, the trip was paid for. I don’t know

23 who paid for it.

24 Q. To your knowledge, did Michael Jackson pay

25 for it?

26 A. No. No. It was an awards. I think he was

27 given tickets to attend this award because he was

28 receiving some kind of —

5701

 

 

1 Q. Who paid for your hotel room, if you know?

2 A. I don’t know.

3 Q. Now, you indicated that at one point Jordie

4 and Michael had the flu, right?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And where did you find out they had the flu?

7 A. In the hotel room.

8 Q. And were they staying in the same room at

9 that point?

10 A. Yes, they were.

11 Q. Did you ever complain about that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what happened?

14 A. The room was boarded up. I couldn’t get in

15 there. It started to get weird now. Things started

16 to go downhill pretty quickly.

17 Q. Did you ever take your son and leave on your

18 own?

19 A. No.

20 Q. After you got back from Monaco, did Michael

21 Jackson spend nights at your home?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were the 30 nights you’ve described after

24 you got back from Monaco?

25 A. No.

26 Q. How many nights after you got back from

27 Monaco do you think Michael Jackson stayed at your

28 home?

5702

 

 

1 A. Oh, perhaps a week or two.

2 Q. And this was a point where you were getting

3 upset that your son wanted to spend all of his time

4 with Michael Jackson, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, while you were in Monaco, you never saw

7 Michael Jackson and your son ever take a bath

8 together, right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You never saw them shower together, right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And when did you go to France on that trip?

13 A. I think that was in May.

14 Q. And what was the purpose of that trip, if

15 you know?

16 A. To get an award. He was receiving an award.

17 Q. Was that after the trip to Monaco or before?

18 A. I’m sorry?

19 Q. Was that after the trip to Monaco?

20 A. What was? What are you asking?

21 Q. The trip to France you described. Was there

22 a —

23 A. That is the trip.

24 Q. That’s the trip?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. It was all in Monaco?

27 A. Monaco, yes.

28 Q. Did you ever go anywhere else?

5703

 

 

1 A. We went to Euro Disney also, outside of

2 Paris.

3 Q. Was the trip to Euro Disney after you were

4 in Monaco for the awards or before it, if you know?

5 A. To the best of my recollection, it was after

6 the awards.

7 Q. And how much time did you spend on that

8 portion of the trip?

9 A. I would say a couple of nights.

10 Q. Okay. Now, one point you visited Evan,

11 Jordan’s father, at his home when Michael Jackson

12 was there, right?

13 A. I don’t recall.

14 Q. Do you recall seeing Evan and Michael in a

15 squirt-gun-type fight?

16 A. That was my home, sir.

17 Q. That was your home?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So Evan had come to your home at that point?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Okay. And Evan, Michael and Jordie were in

22 a squirt gun fight, right?

23 A. Along with his other son Nicky.

24 Q. Okay. And you got upset a little bit at

25 that, right?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Okay. How did you learn that Michael

28 Jackson was going to stay over at Evan’s house?

5704

 

 

1 A. Through my son Jordan.

2 Q. And approximately when did that occur?

3 A. After the trip to Monaco, I think.

4 Q. How many visits, to your knowledge, did

5 Michael Jackson make to Evan’s house?

6 A. To my knowledge — to the best of my

7 recollection, one or two visits.

8 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, did he spend

9 the night there?

10 A. Yes, he did.

11 Q. To your knowledge, did Jordan spend the

12 night there?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. And to your knowledge, was Evan there both

15 nights?

16 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

17 Q. Jordan never missed school while Michael

18 Jackson was staying at your home, right?

19 A. To the best of my recollection, no, he did

20 not miss school.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. There might have been one or two days where

23 he missed, but —

24 Q. Okay. You said that Michael Jackson saw you

25 in New York at one point?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And when was that?

28 A. In June, the middle of June.

5705

 

 

1 Q. Was he staying at the same hotel you were

2 at?

3 A. He arrived after we were there, yes.

4 Q. Did you know in advance he was going to be

5 staying at the same hotel?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how did you know he was going to be

8 staying at the same hotel as you and your children?

9 A. His secretary informed me.

10 Q. Did he pay for those hotel rooms, to your

11 knowledge?

12 A. I don’t know who paid for the hotel rooms.

13 Q. Did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And which hotel was this?

16 A. The Rega Royal Hotel in New York City.

17 Q. And how long did you stay at that hotel —

18 A. Oh, perhaps —

19 Q. — on that trip?

20 A. — four nights.

21 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Jackson there during the four

22 nights, to your knowledge?

23 A. Part — part of those nights, yes.

24 Q. Okay. And did you introduce Mr. Jackson to

25 other members of your family on that trip?

26 A. I don’t recall.

27 Q. Did you mention your brothers were there on

28 that trip?

5706

 

 

1 A. They were in New York, yes.

2 Q. Okay. Did they come to your hotel; do you

3 know?

4 A. I don’t recall.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not Michael

6 met your brothers on that trip?

7 A. I don’t recall that, no.

8 Q. Okay. And what month are we in now, if you

9 know?

10 A. June. In June.

11 Q. Okay. And just to clarify, the first time

12 Mr. Jackson ever stayed at your home in Santa Monica

13 was what month?

14 A. In April.

15 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Michael

16 Jackson, “You’re like a magnet?”

17 A. I don’t recall.

18 Q. Do you remember telling Michael Jackson,

19 “You’re like Peter Pan. Everybody wants to be

20 around you and spend 24 hours”?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You told him, “Lily would too, except she’s

23 not old enough”?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you said there was an incident in a

26 room in New York, right?

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. And did you actually see what happened?

5707

 

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. When did you learn what happened in the

3 room?

4 A. In the morning I saw lamps, two lamps were

5 broken.

6 Q. Okay. And Michael told you he had kicked

7 the two lamps, right?

8 A. My son said that Michael Jackson did a

9 karate kick and kicked the lamps.

10 Q. Actually, Michael told you that, too, didn’t

11 he?

12 A. I don’t recall.

13 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to show

14 you what you said to the District Attorney?

15 A. Thank you. Yes.

16 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

17 THE COURT: Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: Correct.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

20 look at that page?

21 A. Yes, I have.

22 Q. Does it refresh your recollection —

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. — about what you said?

25 Michael told you he kicked the two lamps

26 practicing karate, right?

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. And he said he would pay for it, right?

5708

 

 

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And you said to him, “Lily told me a

3 different story,” right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. But Lily told you they were just playing,

6 correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Now, when do you remember meeting Bert

9 Fields for the first time?

10 A. Sometime in August.

11 Q. Was Michael Jackson still spending evenings

12 at your home in August?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When had he stopped spending evenings at

15 your home, if you know?

16 A. I would say late June.

17 Q. And had you heard of who Bert Fields was

18 before that meeting?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You weren’t aware he’s one of the best-known

21 entertainment lawyers in Los Angeles?

22 A. I was told that by Michael Jackson.

23 Q. And how long was your meeting with Bert

24 Fields?

25 A. I don’t recall. It could be an hour.

26 Q. And that’s where Mr. Pellicano was present?

27 A. I don’t recall.

28 Q. Okay. Is that the only time you’ve ever met

5709

 

 

1 with Bert Fields, to your knowledge?

2 A. I don’t recall.

3 Q. In the sworn declaration you filed regarding

4 your attempt to set aside that stipulation, is there

5 any reason why you didn’t mention Mr. Fields, Mr.

6 Pellicano or Mr. Jackson in that declaration?

7 A. Is my — I don’t understand the question.

8 Q. That’s where you said the only reason you

9 signed the stipulation was because of what your

10 ex-husband threatened you with.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. But you told the jury initially that the

13 reason you signed it was because Michael Jackson

14 wanted you to sign it, true?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. That’s not contained in your declaration, is

17 it?

18 A. No.

19 MR. SNEDDON: Objection. Asked and answered

20 and argumentative.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You didn’t mention Mr.

23 Fields or Mr. Pellicano either in that declaration,

24 right?

25 MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.

26 THE COURT: Overruled.

27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Right?

28 THE COURT: You may answer.

5710

 

 

1 THE WITNESS: Correct.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When had you separated

3 from David Schwartz?

4 A. Around August of ’92, approximately.

5 Q. Do you remember complaining that Evan,

6 Jordan’s father, had promised him money for helping

7 him write the screenplay?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you complained that Evan had not paid

10 Jordan the money he owed him, true?

11 A. I didn’t complain. It was a statement.

12 Q. Well, you asked him to pay him the money,

13 right?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. You didn’t tell him he owed your son $5,000?

16 A. It was a discussion.

17 Q. Okay. Did you want him to pay him that

18 money?

19 A. It would have been a nice thing, yes.

20 Q. He didn’t do it, did he?

21 A. No, he did not.

22 Q. Now, you mentioned a gift certificate for

23 $7,000 —

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. — that you got from Michael Jackson, right?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And did you go to Fred Segal and use that

28 gift certificate?

5711

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did you get with it?

3 A. Oh, clothes, jewelry. That’s it.

4 Q. That’s it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Before today, when is the last time

7 you ever saw Mr. Jackson?

8 A. Oh, ten years ago.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Eleven years ago.

11 Q. Have you talked to Evan at all about what

12 you’re saying in court today?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When is the last time you spoke to him?

15 A. Ten years ago.

16 Q. To your knowledge, did Michael Jackson ever

17 stay at David Schwartz’s home?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did he ever visit there, to your knowledge?

20 A. No. Not that I recall.

21 Q. Other than the first time when you met Mr.

22 Jackson at David Schwartz’s rental car company, do

23 you recall ever seeing Michael Jackson meeting with

24 David Schwartz?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Do you remember Evan threatening David

27 physically?

28 A. Yes.

5712

 

 

1 Q. And when did that happen?

2 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

3 object as immaterial.

4 THE COURT: Sustained.

5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Approximately when did you

6 get settlement money from the settlement with

7 Michael Jackson?

8 A. Oh, I would say approximately October of

9 ’93.

10 Q. Have you received any settlement money since

11 then?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You mentioned to the District Attorney in

14 Los Angeles a meeting Michael Jackson had with

15 Elizabeth Taylor and Nelson Mandela. Do you

16 remember that?

17 A. Correct.

18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I object as

19 immaterial.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember, was

22 Jordie with Michael at that meeting?

23 A. I don’t recall.

24 Q. David Schwartz was also at the apartment

25 that Michael Jackson owned in Century City that you

26 called “The Hideout,” right?

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. And approximately when was that meeting?

5713

 

 

1 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

2 object as vague as to time. What meeting?

3 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it.

4 Q. When, to your knowledge, did David Schwartz

5 visit Michael Jackson’s home in Century City that

6 you call “The Hideout”?

7 A. It could be late August, early September.

8 Q. Who else was there when you got to the

9 apartment?

10 A. I don’t recall who else was there.

11 Q. Do you remember in your meeting with Mr.

12 Pellicano telling Mr. Pellicano, “Well, it’s Michael

13 Jackson. I know Evan. It could be money. It could

14 be”?

15 MR. SNEDDON: Object as hearsay, Your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever personally

18 tell Mr. Pellicano that Evan’s concerns could be

19 only about money?

20 MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was your lawyer, Michael

23 Freeman, at that meeting with Mr. Pellicano?

24 A. I believe so.

25 Q. Is that the same meeting Bert Fields was

26 present?

27 A. I don’t recall, but possibly. Quite

28 possibly.

5714

 

 

1 Q. If your lawyer, Michael Freeman, was at the

2 meeting, you must have been able to get legal advice

3 about what to sign, right?

4 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that

5 question. Assumes facts and calls for speculation.

6 Can I throw in argumentative, too?

7 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ask Attorney

9 Michael Freeman to be at the meeting?

10 A. No. I don’t recall.

11 Q. Do you know how he got there?

12 A. I don’t think he was there.

13 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that

14 question. She has not said he was there. Assumes

15 facts.

16 MR. MESEREAU: She did. She did.

17 THE WITNESS: I don’t recall him being

18 there.

19 THE COURT: Just a moment.

20 Objection sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Who is Michael Freeman?

22 A. An attorney. My attorney.

23 Q. And when did you first meet Michael Freeman?

24 A. Oh, I don’t recall when.

25 Q. Did he represent you at some point during

26 the time period you’ve described today?

27 A. At some point, yes.

28 Q. And he was your personal lawyer —

5715

 

 

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. — is that right?

3 You mentioned — actually, let me ask you

4 this: Did you mention Norma Stakos earlier?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Where did you meet Norma Stakos?

7 A. I’ve never met Norma Stakos.

8 Q. Have you ever spoken to her?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In what context did you speak to Norma

11 Stakos?

12 A. By telephone, about where we should meet, or

13 when Michael Jackson is coming in to New York, or

14 things like that.

15 Q. Did she seem to be the person that arranged

16 your trips?

17 A. Everything. Everything.

18 Q. Did she seem to be the person who would get

19 plane tickets, for example?

20 A. Absolutely, yes.

21 Q. Would she be the person who would arrange

22 transportation on your trips with Michael Jackson?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Do you remember at your meeting with

25 Mr. Pellicano, that Mr. Pellicano said, “This is all

26 extortion”?

27 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

28 object to that question. Calls for hearsay.

5716

 

 

1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, at the time you met

3 Mr. Fields and Mr. Pellicano, to your knowledge, did

4 Evan have his own attorney?

5 A. I don’t recall.

6 Q. At some point during the time you were

7 represented by Larry Feldman, do you recall Evan

8 also having another lawyer?

9 A. I don’t recall that.

10 Q. Do you recall the name Barry Rothman?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where did you first hear about Barry

13 Rothman?

14 A. Before Larry Feldman. That was Evan’s

15 attorney.

16 Q. Now, at some point were you represented by

17 Attorney Gloria Allred?

18 A. Two seconds. For two seconds.

19 Q. It was a little bit more than that, wasn’t

20 it?

21 A. Two hours.

22 (Laughter.)

23 Q. You and Evan and Jordan were represented by

24 Gloria Allred initially, correct?

25 A. Initially.

26 Q. You had meetings with her, correct?

27 A. One or two, yes.

28 Q. And then you went to Attorney Larry Feldman,

5717

 

 

1 right?

2 A. He came into the picture, yes.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know approximately when Gloria Allred

6 represented you, Evan and Jordie?

7 A. Before Larry Feldman.

8 Q. Do you know approximately —

9 A. No.

10 Q. — what year that was?

11 A. Yes, ’94.

12 Q. Okay. Were you referred to Gloria Allred by

13 someone?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How did you wind up being represented by

16 her?

17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

18 object as immaterial.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How many times did you

21 meet with Mr. Pellicano?

22 A. Approximately three times. Three to four

23 times.

24 Q. Do you know where those meetings took place?

25 A. As far as I recall, in his office.

26 Q. Did you travel to his office?

27 A. Yes, I did.

28 Q. Were you there with your attorney, Michael

5718

 

 

1 Freeman, ever?

2 A. I don’t think so, no, no.

3 Q. Did you have discussions with Mr. Pellicano?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you ever believe he was your

6 investigator?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when was that?

9 A. When we had meetings.

10 Q. When you had meetings with Mr. Pellicano,

11 you had already retained Michael Freeman as your

12 lawyer, hadn’t you?

13 A. I don’t think so, no.

14 Q. What month do you think you first saw Mr.

15 Pellicano?

16 A. In August. Approximately August.

17 Q. The declaration I referred to earlier was

18 signed on August 10th, 1993, correct?

19 A. Okay. Yes.

20 Q. And it’s on Freeman & Golden, Lawyers,

21 stationery, correct?

22 A. I guess so.

23 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show

24 you the declaration?

25 A. Thank you.

26 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

27 THE COURT: Yes.

28 THE WITNESS: That’s correct.

5719

 

 

1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: (Indicating.)

2 A. Thank you.

3 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the

4 declaration?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And does it appear that that declaration was

7 signed August 10th, 1993?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. And it’s on Freeman & Golden, Lawyers,

10 stationery, correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And your lawyer helped you prepare this

13 declaration, true?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Was Michael Freeman representing you in your

16 domestic dispute with Evan?

17 A. No. I don’t recall. I don’t recall.

18 Q. When did he stop representing you, if you

19 know?

20 A. Shortly thereafter. Not —

21 Q. Okay. Now, was Michael Freeman representing

22 you when Gloria Allred was representing you?

23 A. I don’t recall.

24 Q. Was Michael Freeman representing you when

25 Larry Feldman was representing you?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Do you recall at one point meeting with

28 Robert Shapiro?

5720

 

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when was that?

3 A. In Larry Feldman’s office.

4 Q. How many meetings did you have with Robert

5 Shapiro?

6 A. I don’t recall.

7 Q. Do you know why he was at the meeting?

8 A. I — I think as part of Michael Jackson’s

9 legal team.

10 Q. Who, Robert Shapiro?

11 A. I think so. I don’t recall.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. It was so long ago.

14 Q. Well, he was there because Michael Jackson’s

15 attorneys were claiming extortion, right?

16 A. I don’t recall.

17 Q. Robert Shapiro was there because he’s a

18 criminal defense lawyer, right?

19 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, excuse me. I want

20 to interpose an objection before the next question

21 comes out. Speculation. She says she doesn’t have

22 any recollection of this, so why Mr. Shapiro —

23 THE COURT: Stop talking. You’re just

24 supposed to give your grounds for the objection.

25 MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry. Object.

26 Speculation.

27 THE COURT: All right. Overruled.

28 The question — the last question, would the

5721

 

 

1 court reporter read it back, please?

2 (Record read.)

3 THE COURT: You may answer.

4 THE WITNESS: Correct.

5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember also in

6 your meetings, meeting — excuse me, let me rephrase

7 that.

8 In the meetings you’ve described with Larry

9 Feldman, Michael Freeman, Robert Shapiro, do you

10 also remember a lawyer named Richard Hirsch being

11 present?

12 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

13 object as to all those people and compound.

14 THE COURT: It’s vague.

15 We’ll take our break now.

16 (Recess taken.)

17 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau.

18 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

19 Q. Just very briefly, you and Evan hired

20 attorneys and tried to negotiate a financial

21 settlement before you ever talked to any police

22 officer, right?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You were negotiating for money before you

25 ever reported anything to any police officer in Los

26 Angeles, correct?

27 A. Not correct.

28 Q. Do you know the dates you hired your

5722

 

 

1 attorneys?

2 A. After we spoke with the police.

3 Q. You’re saying that under oath?

4 A. That’s what I believe, yes.

5 Q. You don’t know that for sure, do you?

6 A. I’m sure.

7 Q. Your negotiations went on long before you

8 ever went to any police officer in Los Angeles,

9 true?

10 A. False.

11 Q. Do you know when you first went to any

12 police officer?

13 A. After the police, after we spoke to the

14 police.

15 Q. It was after you spoke to Larry Feldman on a

16 number of visits, correct?

17 A. Not correct.

18 Q. It was actually Larry Feldman who contacted

19 the police, wasn’t it?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You didn’t talk to any prosecutor in Los

22 Angeles before you retained Gloria Allred, correct?

23 A. Yes. Correct.

24 Q. You didn’t talk to any police officer in Los

25 Angeles before retaining Gloria Allred, correct?

26 A. Can you backtrack a bit? Can you —

27 Q. You retained Gloria Allred before you ever

28 contacted any police officer in Los Angeles, true?

5723

 

 

1 A. Not true.

2 Q. Who did you contact in the LAPD before you

3 hired Gloria Allred?

4 A. The police department. LAPD.

5 Q. You didn’t give any police statement before

6 negotiations had already begun to settle the case,

7 true?

8 A. Not correct.

9 Q. Did you call them yourself?

10 A. Did I call?

11 Q. The police yourself?

12 A. Department of Children Services.

13 Q. How about police?

14 A. No. Department of children Services.

15 Q. I’m asking you about the police.

16 MR. SNEDDON: It’s argumentative, Your

17 Honor.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You were negotiating for

20 money —

21 THE COURT: Just a minute.

22 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, pardon me.

23 THE COURT: All right. She did answer it

24 before the objection. Go ahead, Counsel, next

25 question.

26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You said you contacted

27 Department of Children Services, correct?

28 A. Yes.

5724

 

 

1 Q. That’s not the police department, is it?

2 MR. SNEDDON: That’s argumentative, Your

3 Honor. And assumes facts not in evidence.

4 THE COURT: Sustained; argumentative.

5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And you contacted

6 Department of Children’s Services after first

7 talking to a lawyer, true?

8 A. Not correct.

9 Q. In fact, you personally never called the

10 police department, ever, about anything involving

11 Mr. Jackson, true?

12 A. True.

13 Q. When did you first hire Gloria Allred?

14 A. After we spoke to the District Attorney.

15 Q. When did you first hire Larry Feldman?

16 A. After the police were notified, Department

17 of Children’s Services, and Lauren Weis, the

18 District Attorney.

19 Q. Your strategy was to negotiate a settlement

20 before ever contacting law enforcement, true?

21 A. No strategy, sorry.

22 Q. And one of the levers you were trying to

23 hang over Mr. Jackson was bad publicity if he didn’t

24 pay, right?

25 A. Incorrect.

26 Q. Okay. When you talked to Mr. Sneddon, did

27 he ever show you the dates when you contacted your

28 first lawyer in this case?

5725

 

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you talked to Mr. Sneddon, did he ever

3 show you the dates before any contact was ever made

4 to a police officer?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know when your civil case was first

7 filed?

8 A. I’m not sure of the exact date.

9 Q. Do you know who filed it?

10 A. I’m not exactly sure. Sorry.

11 Q. Okay. Do you know when you first contacted

12 Department of Children’s Services?

13 A. Sometime in August.

14 Q. You don’t know when you hired Gloria Allred,

15 correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Do you know if Gloria Allred contacted

18 Department of Children Services?

19 A. I don’t know that.

20 Q. Do you know when Evan first hired Barry

21 Rothman?

22 A. I do not know that.

23 Q. He hired Barry Rothman before any report was

24 made to DCFS, correct?

25 A. I don’t know.

26 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object. Calls

27 for speculation.

28 THE COURT: Sustained.

5726

 

 

1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you first hire

2 Attorney Michael Freeman?

3 MR. SNEDDON: Object as asked and answered.

4 THE COURT: I believe she said she didn’t

5 know.

6 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.

7 THE COURT: All right.

8

9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. SNEDDON:

11 Q. Mrs. Chandler, do you know whether or not in

12 Los Angeles, that the Los Angeles Police Department

13 has sworn peace officers attached to the Child Abuse

14 Unit in the Department of Child Services?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Sorry?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Were those the people that you talked to

19 when you were interviewed?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. And do you have a recollection at this

22 present time as to specifically when in August you

23 interviewed with them?

24 A. Specifically, no.

25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I

26 showed you a document about that interview?

27 A. Yes.

28 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach, Your Honor?

5727

 

 

1 THE COURT: Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Does that refresh your

4 recollection?

5 A. Yes, it does.

6 Q. With regard to — I’m sorry, to when you

7 were interviewed by members of the Los Angeles

8 Police Department?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. And what was the date on that?

11 A. 8-7-93.

12 Q. Now, let’s go back, if we can. And just to

13 clarify, you were not the one who originally

14 contacted the — made the report?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Do you know who did, of your own knowledge?

17 A. Of my knowledge, it was Jordan Chandler, my

18 son.

19 Q. Now, let’s go back for just a second.

20 Mr. Mesereau asked you about a meeting on Saturday

21 involving your attorney and myself. Do you recall

22 that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And was there also another person that was

25 present with us that I brought along?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Do you remember the person’s name?

28 A. No, I don’t remember his name, but he was a

5728

 

 

1 detective.

2 Q. With the sheriff’s department?

3 A. With the sheriff’s department.

4 Q. So he was also present during that entire

5 meeting?

6 A. He was — absolutely, yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, he also asked you about

8 conversations that you and I had on the phone. Do

9 you recall that?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And that we had talked a couple of times on

12 the phone?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And with regard to those conversations, the

15 first conversation we had, do you recall the

16 substance of that conversation?

17 A. That I would be subpoenaed and for —

18 testifying.

19 Q. And did I indicate to you that I wanted to

20 talk to you, to do an interview with you?

21 A. That we would be speaking later on, yes.

22 Q. Okay. And did you — did you have to check

23 with somebody to make sure that was okay because of

24 the confidentiality agreement?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And who was that?

27 A. Larry Feldman.

28 Q. So is that one of the phone calls that you

5729

 

 

1 had with Mr. Feldman, was to make sure —

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. — to make sure it was okay for you to talk

4 to me?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Mesereau asked you about some

7 countersuit that Michael Jackson alleged against you

8 and members of your family. Do you recall that

9 question?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you ever pay a penny to Mr. Jackson in

12 any lawsuit to settle anything?

13 A. No. No.

14 Q. Now, you indicated that these two children

15 from New Jersey that you mentioned, the Cascios, do

16 you remember the name of the restaurant in New

17 Jersey that they allegedly owned?

18 A. Aldo’s Restaurant.

19 Q. You talked with Mr. Mesereau about the

20 incident that occurred in New York where the lamps

21 got broken and the karate kicks and all that?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Okay. Did you subsequently learn that the

24 version of what happened was not truthful?

25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

26 THE WITNESS: Correct.

27 THE COURT: Sustained. The answer’s

28 stricken.

5730

 

 

1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you subsequently — can

2 you tell us how you eventually — let me put it this

3 way: Did you ultimately learn other information

4 about that incident?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You personally?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you determine from that information

9 that the original version wasn’t correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. We talked a little bit in your direct

12 examination about the change-in-custody agreement

13 that Mr. Jackson asked you to sign. Do you recall

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And you said you did sign it?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Now, after having signed that document, did

19 you ever get custody of your child back?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you about your son Jordan

22 and about some things you may or may not have seen

23 with regard to taking showers. And I want to ask

24 you a few questions about that, okay?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. During the time that you were — you stayed

27 at Neverland Valley Ranch, and your son slept in Mr.

28 Jackson’s room – okay? – did you ever see your son

5731

 

 

1 come back to the guest cottages to take showers?

2 A. No.

3 Q. During the time that your son was in Monaco

4 and stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room for several days in

5 a row, did you ever see your son come back to take

6 showers in your room?

7 A. No.

8 Q. During the time that you were in Florida and

9 Mr. Jackson and your son spent the time together and

10 he was sleeping in Mr. Jackson’s room, did you ever

11 see your son come back to your room to take showers

12 or to clean up?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And if I were to ask you that same question

15 with regard to baths – okay? – would there be any

16 different answers?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Or with regard to seeing your son getting

19 dressed in the morning, would there be any different

20 answers?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, with regard to the meeting that Mr.

23 Mesereau talked about, where you were at the

24 hideout, Mr. Jackson’s hideout, the Century City

25 place — in Century City? I don’t know where it is.

26 A. Yes, it is.

27 Q. And we’re talking about the evening that you

28 described where Mr. Pellicano was talking to Jordan

5732

 

 

1 downstairs and you were upstairs with David

2 Schwartz.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. You told us that lasted about 45 minutes?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Jackson was

7 present during that conversation?

8 A. I don’t recall him being there.

9 Q. Now, if I show you your statement that you

10 gave to the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office,

11 might that refresh your recollection to that event?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. SNEDDON: May I, Your Honor?

14 THE COURT: Yes.

15 MR. SNEDDON: Page 90, Counsel.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

17 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Does having seen that

18 statement refresh your recollection as to whether or

19 not Mr. Jackson was present with Mr. Pellicano

20 during Jordan’s conversation or interview?

21 A. Yes, it does.

22 Q. And was he?

23 A. Yes, he was present.

24 Q. You told the jury that it’s been 11 years

25 since you’ve had any conversations with your son

26 Jordan, correct?

27 A. Correct.

28 Q. Is that by your choice?

5733

 

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. You told the jury that as a result of the

3 conversation with Mr. Jackson in Las Vegas where he

4 urged you to trust him – okay? —

5 A. Yes. I’ll be okay. Thank you.

6 Q. — that during that conversation in Las

7 Vegas where Mr. Jackson urged you to trust him, do

8 you recall that?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. Do you regret ever doing that?

11 A. Very much so.

12 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further.

13

14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. MESEREAU:

16 Q. Briefly, do you recall Evan hired counsel

17 in June to start negotiating with Mr. Jackson?

18 A. No, I don’t recall.

19 Q. Do you recall being in any meetings with

20 Evan and his counsel in June to try and settle the

21 matter?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you recall Mr. Pellicano making

24 settlement offers to Evan on your behalf in June?

25 A. No, I don’t.

26 Q. Do you recall any contact between Evan and

27 lawyers in May?

28 A. No.

5734

 

 

1 Q. Okay. You never discussed that with Evan at

2 the time?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Didn’t you have a lot of — we’re talking

5 about 1993. Didn’t you have a lot of contact with

6 Evan at that point about hiring counsel?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And weren’t you in a dispute with Evan at

9 that point over custody?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And when did that dispute begin, if

12 you know?

13 A. In August of ’93.

14 Q. But you had had problems with Evan for

15 months before that, had you not?

16 A. Not — not terrible.

17 Q. And you don’t know when he hired his

18 attorney?

19 A. No, I don’t. No, I don’t.

20 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.

21 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further, Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may

23 step down.

24 THE COURT: Call your next witness.

25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: People call Dwayne

26 Swingler.

27 THE COURT: When you get to the witness

28 stand, please face the clerk and raise your right

5735

 

 

1 hand.

2

3 DWAYNE SWINGLER

4 Having been sworn, testified as follows:

5

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.

7 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and

8 spell your name for the record.

9 THE WITNESS: My name is Dwayne Swingler;

10 D-w-a-y-n-e, Swingler, S-w-i-n-g-l-e-r.

11 THE CLERK: Thank you.

12

13 DIRECT EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Swingler.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. What is your current occupation, sir?

18 A. Right now I do stand-in work, movie sets.

19 Q. Okay. And what kind of — stand-in work,

20 what does that —

21 A. Stand in for stars. It’s called second

22 team. They don’t use the stars to get the lights

23 bright. They use stand-ins.

24 Q. I see. During the year 2003, at some point

25 during that year, did you — were you employed by

26 Michael Jackson?

27 A. Yes, sir.

28 Q. Is he the man seated to my right with the

5736

 

 

1 long black hair?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 When did you begin working for Mr. Jackson?

5 A. In June of 2003. Early June of 2003.

6 Q. And what was your — what was your

7 assignment for Mr. Jackson?

8 A. Supervisor of Neverland.

9 Q. How did you come to get that position?

10 A. I met Michael at a studio, Marvin Gaye’s

11 studio in Hollywood.

12 Q. What were you doing at the studio?

13 A. My cousin was engineering Michael’s music

14 session, and Michael needed someone to whistle on a

15 track, so my cousin called me and said, “Would you

16 like to come down and whistle on Michael’s track?”

17 And I said, “I can’t whistle that well, but I would

18 love to come down and meet Michael Jackson.”

19 Q. Okay. Are you yourself a musician?

20 A. Yes, I am.

21 Q. And you met Mr. Jackson on that date?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Can you tell me about — was that in 2003?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. About what month was it, if you recall?

26 A. That was probably early — sometime in

27 April.

28 Q. And how did it come about that you were

5737

 

 

1 offered employment?

2 A. I hung out at the studio with Michael and

3 his kids, and Chris Carter, maybe four, five days in

4 a row, three, four days in a row, while they were

5 working on the session.

6 Q. Who did you understand Chris Carter to be?

7 A. Michael’s personal security.

8 Q. And so somebody offered you employment?

9 A. On the last day there, Chris Carter asked me

10 to come outside. So I walked outside with him, and

11 at that time he told me that, you know, “Michael

12 likes you. He would love to bring you aboard. What

13 are you currently doing right now”?

14 Q. Were you available?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did they tell you what type of job they

17 wanted to hire you for?

18 A. Initially they hired me to be security,

19 along with Chris Carter, to travel with Michael.

20 Q. And how did that work out?

21 A. Well, that didn’t work for me because I had

22 triplets. I got three-year-old triplet boys, so….

23 Q. All right. So traveling wasn’t an option?

24 A. No. Actually, Michael was the one who said,

25 “If he has triplet boys, then I don’t want him to be

26 traveling with me all the time.”

27 Q. So you said you became ranch manager?

28 A. Yes.

5738

 

 

1 Q. How did that come about?

2 A. I guess Michael suggested to Chris, “If he

3 has triplets, he’ll be away from his kids a lot. So

4 maybe we should offer him another job,” and that’s

5 when supervisor of Neverland came up.

6 Q. So who offered you that position, I guess is

7 my question?

8 A. I guess Michael. But Chris Carter’s the one

9 who told me about the position.

10 Q. At some time did you discuss with Mr.

11 Jackson personally your employment?

12 A. I don’t understand the question.

13 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Mr.

14 Jackson about your employment as ranch manager?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did he ever discuss with you the terms by

17 which you could be terminated if he was dissatisfied

18 with your work?

19 A. He didn’t discuss with me personally. But

20 Chris Carter and Joe Marcus did.

21 Q. And did you have an understanding about how

22 you could be terminated?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what was that?

25 A. Grounds of giving up information of where

26 Michael Jackson’s whereabouts are, and, you know,

27 there was a rule on the ranch — I don’t know if it

28 came directly from Michael, but, you know, Chris

5739

 

 

1 told me and Joe Marcus told me as well, that you can

2 never say no —

3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.

4 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay, let’s just back up a

5 minute.

6 Q. I think what my question is, did you know —

7 did you have some indication from Mr. Jackson as to

8 who had authority to terminate you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who was that?

11 A. From my understanding, it was only supposed

12 to be Michael Jackson.

13 Q. Okay. At some point during 2003, were you

14 terminated?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell me about that. How did that come

17 about?

18 A. I had —

19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague as to time.

20 THE COURT: I’ll ask you to clarify the time.

21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay.

22 Q. When were you terminated?

23 A. Early August 2003.

24 Q. And how long had you been working at that

25 point for Mr. Jackson?

26 A. Maybe five, six weeks.

27 Q. When did you start work?

28 A. I was hired in the end of April, early May.

5740

 

 

1 But I had to go back to Michigan for a couple of

2 weeks, so the hiring process took awhile. You know,

3 background checks, physicals.

4 Q. When did you start going to Neverland?

5 A. In May.

6 Q. In May?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. And when did you start getting a paycheck?

9 A. In June.

10 Q. Okay. And what were you doing there in May?

11 A. I just came out to the ranch to check things

12 out to see the position that I would be, you know,

13 filling.

14 Q. In May, was it understood that you would be

15 the ranch manager?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you go up there and receive some

18 instruction from anybody as to what the duties were,

19 in May?

20 A. I received, well, sort of from Joe Marcus,

21 some instruction, but not as much as I did once I

22 started in June.

23 Q. What was Mr. Marcus’s assignment at that

24 time?

25 A. Ranch manager.

26 Q. So he was ranch manager and you were going

27 to take it over?

28 A. No. Ranch manager, you deal with the

5741

 

 

1 majority of the workers outside, the garden, the

2 landscapers, things like that. The carnival, the

3 festival, whatever.

4 Q. What was Joe Marcus doing?

5 A. What do you mean?

6 Q. Well, you said Joe Marcus was ranch manager.

7 A. Right, that was his position. Ranch

8 manager, you deal with all the employees basically

9 outside of the house.

10 Q. And your position was going to be?

11 A. Supervisor. Deal with the employees and

12 Michael and the kids in the house.

13 Q. Oh, in the house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So house manager?

16 A. House manager.

17 Q. All right. Good.

18 So you began work in June, but you went up

19 there for how many weeks to get some training?

20 A. Not really training, just sort of to come

21 check things out, and to see who — you know, what

22 position I would be taking and where the office was,

23 and things like that.

24 Q. And when was it you were terminated?

25 A. In early August.

26 Q. And how did that come about?

27 A. I had had a meeting with Michael about

28 transferring my position. And I liked working for

5742

 

 

1 him. I wanted to work for him somewhere in Los

2 Angeles, because my triplets were only one years old

3 at the time. So I was missing them, them being in

4 Los Angeles and me being here, and me staying the

5 night at Neverland often. Wasn’t working for me.

6 So I had a one-on-one meeting with him to be

7 transferred.

8 Q. And how did your termination come about?

9 A. I —

10 Q. Let me ask you this: Were you terminated?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. And how were you terminated?

13 A. I was terminated by Joe Marcus. He — I

14 arrived at Neverland one morning for work and he

15 told me — he had changed the locks on me. And then

16 I went into — I mean, some — one of the

17 employees — one of my employees in the house told

18 me Joe came to change the locks. And I said, “Why?”

19 And they said, “I don’t know.” And I had already

20 been told by the guard at the gate that Joe —

21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.

22 THE COURT: Sustained.

23 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: So the locks were

24 changed. Did you go talk to Mr. Marcus?

25 A. Yes, I did.

26 Q. What did he tell you?

27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.

28 THE WITNESS: He told —

5743

 

 

1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I can go back to my last

2 question, I guess. I’ll withdraw that question,

3 Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: All right.

5 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And how specifically —

6 I want you to go directly to the answer on this

7 question. How specifically did you learn that you

8 were terminated?

9 A. I —

10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and

11 answered.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 You may answer.

14 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Go ahead.

15 A. I learned directly from Joe Marcus that my

16 services would no longer be needed at Neverland, and

17 that he didn’t have to give me a reason. Because

18 I —

19 Q. You asked him for a reason?

20 A. Yes, I did. I didn’t think I had done

21 anything wrong. Well, I know I hadn’t done anything

22 wrong.

23 Q. Okay. So you’d been at Neverland for a

24 little over a month, and you’d worked there for a

25 few weeks before that time as well?

26 A. Well, not worked. But like — I wasn’t

27 getting paid for that time. That was just to come

28 out there and check the ranch out.

5744

 

 

1 Q. During the time that you were at Neverland,

2 did you have personal interaction with Michael

3 Jackson?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On how often a basis?

6 A. If he was there. All the time, if he was

7 there.

8 Q. More than once a day?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who was responsible for handling Mr.

11 Jackson’s appointments while he was on the ranch?

12 A. At Neverland, I would take the — all the

13 phone calls. It didn’t matter who it was calling;

14 mother, father, business person.

15 Q. So if he had an appointment for a day, would

16 you take that — would that be part of your duties?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To schedule those appointments?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you have occasion to observe visitors of

21 Mr. Jackson that were child visitors?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see child visitors spend the night

24 at Neverland?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Did you see child visitors spend the night

27 in Mr. Jackson’s room?

28 A. Yes.

5745

 

 

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; and

2 violates the Court’s order.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Who did you see visit

5 Mr. Jackson who was a child visitor?

6 MR. MESEREAU: I’m going to object.

7 Violates the Court’s order.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: When you were at

10 Neverland, did you interact with Mr. Jackson about

11 issues dealing with activities on the ranch?

12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.

13 THE COURT: Overruled.

14 THE WITNESS: Issues dealing with activity on

15 the ranch?

16 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Well, whatever — let’s

17 back up. What were your duties as house manager?

18 A. To answer all the phone calls. To, you

19 know, schedule the maids. To help the maids out

20 with cleaning rooms and suites. And basically to,

21 you know, take care of whatever Michael and the kids

22 needed.

23 Q. And in terms of the day-to-day issues in

24 terms of running the ranch, can you characterize

25 how — Mr. Jackson’s degree of involvement?

26 A. As far as — I mean —

27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague; and

28 relevance.

5746

 

 

1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 You may answer.

3 THE WITNESS: Mr. Jackson is in total charge

4 of the ranch.

5 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Why do you say that?

6 A. Well, when I was terminated, because of my

7 previous conversation with Chris Carter that only

8 Michael Jackson could terminate me, I called Evvy,

9 which is Michael’s personal assistant —

10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;

11 hearsay.

12 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: That’s fine.

13 MR. MESEREAU: And relevant as to time.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: So when you were on the

16 ranch, did you have occasion to see Mr. Jackson in

17 terms of making orders at the ranch?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he make orders?

20 A. Yes. He made some to me.

21 MR. MESEREAU: Continuing relevance

22 objection, Your Honor, as to time.

23 THE COURT: Time?

24 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: During the time that

25 you were ranch manager, during that five-week

26 period.

27 A. Yes.

28 MR. MESEREAU: That’s the objection, Your

5747

 

 

1 Honor. The time period’s irrelevant.

2 THE COURT: All right. That’s overruled.

3 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Go ahead. You can

4 answer that question.

5 A. Yes, I observed it. He made some to me

6 personally.

7 Q. Did you have occasion to see individuals,

8 his other employees, in terms of their relationship

9 with Mr. Jackson?

10 A. Meaning like Joe Marcus and Grace and those?

11 Q. I mean — let’s talk about your employees.

12 Did you have employees that were working under you

13 as house manager?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who?

16 A. Cooks?

17 Q. Yeah, just generally speaking.

18 A. Cooks, housekeepers, maids.

19 Q. Okay. And had some of these people been

20 working at the ranch longer than you had?

21 A. Yes. The majority of — all of them.

22 Q. And did you have occasion to see their

23 interaction with Mr. Jackson?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what level of service did Mr. Jackson

26 expect?

27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; vague;

28 no foundation.

5748

 

 

1 THE COURT: It’s vague; sustained.

2 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Can you characterize

3 the demeanor of the employees around Mr. Jackson

4 when they were in his presence?

5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague; relevance.

6 Particularly the time period.

7 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll be specific.

8 Q. During the time you were ranch manager, or

9 house manager.

10 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection.

11 THE COURT: Overruled.

12 THE WITNESS: Can you ask me the question

13 again?

14 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Yeah. My question is,

15 can you characterize the demeanor — how did these

16 people act, these employees, when they were around

17 Mr. Jackson in his presence?

18 A. I mean, they act like they liked him. Mr.

19 Jackson was nice to people.

20 Q. Did they act like they’d speak their mind

21 around him?

22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did they act — did

25 they act comfortable around him?

26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; vague;

27 relevance; and foundation.

28 THE COURT: Sustained.

5749

 

 

1 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Do you know if — do

2 you know if Mr. Jackson would fire people at

3 Neverland?

4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Foundation;

5 relevance.

6 THE COURT: Foundation; sustained.

7 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Well, you yourself were

8 fired; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Do you know who fired you?

11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and

12 answered.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Who — when you were

15 working with Mr. Jackson, did you have occasion to

16 see individuals who were employees of his that were

17 closer than other employees?

18 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague; leading;

19 relevance; foundation.

20 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection, Counsel’s

21 fishing for a reason to object to that question.

22 MR. MESEREAU: I object to the colloquy,

23 move to strike.

24 THE COURT: I’ll sustain the “vague”

25 objection to that question.

26 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you see

27 employees — did you see any employees that spent

28 more time with Mr. Jackson than other employees?

5750

 

 

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; vague;

2 foundation; and relevance.

3 THE COURT: Overruled.

4 You may answer.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

6 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you see — well,

7 let’s go ahead and make a list. Who did you see

8 that spent more time with Mr. Jackson than other

9 employees?

10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance;

11 foundation; vague.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 You may answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Vase — Grace, I’m sorry.

15 Grace, Chris Carter. Those are the two that I think

16 spent most of the time with Mr. Jackson.

17 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you ever see an

18 individual visit the ranch by the name of Dieter

19 Weizner?

20 A. I would have to see a picture to be sure.

21 MR. MESEREAU: Could we approach, Your

22 Honor? We’d like a proffer.

23 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Be happy to make one.

24 THE COURT: I don’t really need that. I —

25 it’s clear to me where….

26 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I show you People’s

27 Exhibit No. 17, Mr. Swingler. Can you identify that

28 for me, please?

5751

 

 

1 A. I can’t say I’ve seen that gentleman.

2 Q. You haven’t seen him?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you see — did you previously have a

5 conversation with Detective Bonner about the facts

6 of this case?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And in that conversation, did you

9 identify — just a moment, if you would, please.

10 Did you identify a number of individuals

11 that you thought were within Michael Jackson’s inner

12 circle?

13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; and

14 vague.

15 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: It’s impeachment.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m sorry?

18 THE COURT: It’s vague.

19 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you identify Dieter

20 Weizner as a member of Michael Jackson’s inner

21 circle?

22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; and

23 foundation.

24 THE COURT: Overruled.

25 You may answer.

26 THE WITNESS: In my conversation with

27 Detective Bonner?

28 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: With Detective Bonner,

5752

 

 

1 did you not identify Dieter Weizner specifically as

2 a member of Michael Jackson’s inner circle?

3 A. I can’t — I can’t really recall, because I

4 don’t know the face. I never seen the face before.

5 The name I know. The face I don’t.

6 Q. Do you know the name Dieter Weizner?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you meet a man by the name of Dieter

9 Weizner?

10 A. Looking at the face —

11 Q. I’m not asking you about the face.

12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. He’s arguing with

13 the witness. Leading and foundation.

14 THE COURT: Overruled.

15 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you meet a man by

16 the name of Dieter Weizner?

17 A. I can’t remember.

18 Q. Did you meet a man — well —

19 A. Like I say, the name sounds familiar. I

20 know I’ve heard the name. Maybe I spoke with him on

21 the phone a few times there, but the face didn’t —

22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Calls for

23 speculation; move to strike; nonresponsive.

24 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you meet a man by

25 the name of Ronald Konitzer?

26 THE COURT: There’s an objection pending.

27 THE BAILIFF: Judge, can you turn the

28 microphone on?

5753

 

 

1 THE COURT: All right. The objection is

2 overruled. And you had another question. Go ahead.

3 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you meet a man by

4 the name of Ronald Konitzer?

5 A. I can’t — by the name — I would have to

6 see a picture.

7 Q. Did you meet two German businessmen?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did they meet with Mr. Jackson?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On how many occasions?

12 A. Three or four.

13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you. I have no

14 further questions.

15 THE COURT: Cross-examine?

16

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. MESEREAU:

19 Q. Good afternoon.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. My name’s Tom Mesereau. I speak for Mr.

22 Jackson.

23 A. How you doing, sir?

24 Q. Good. Good. We’ve never spoken before,

25 right?

26 A. No.

27 Q. You worked for a five-week period?

28 A. Four and a half, five weeks, yes, sir.

5754

 

 

1 Q. Four and a half, five weeks. How many days

2 a week did you work?

3 A. Six or seven.

4 Q. And the prosecutor asked you about how many

5 meetings Mr. Jackson had with two German

6 individuals, right?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Do you really know how many meetings there

9 were?

10 A. Around, I’m guessing, three to four.

11 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Move to strike the

12 testimony, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Denied.

14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You’re guessing three to

15 four, but you don’t really know, right?

16 A. No, I couldn’t say. I couldn’t pinpoint it.

17 I wasn’t —

18 Q. You weren’t in the meetings, right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You don’t remember what they looked like,

21 right?

22 A. I do remember what they looked like if I saw

23 a picture of them, yes.

24 Q. Well, the picture the prosecutor showed you,

25 you couldn’t identify, right?

26 A. Yes, sir.

27 Q. Okay. Now, you wanted to be transferred to

28 Los Angeles; is that correct?

5755

 

 

1 A. Yes. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And did you tell — excuse me, who did you

3 talk to about the transfer?

4 A. Mr. Jackson.

5 Q. Okay. And you explained that the commute

6 and the hours were just too much to raise your

7 family?

8 A. I just wasn’t seeing my kids, and they were

9 one years old.

10 Q. And did you ask Mr. Jackson to be

11 transferred somewhere in Los Angeles?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And where was that?

14 A. I just asked him to be transferred to any

15 business in Los Angeles that he had.

16 Q. But you really didn’t even know if there was

17 a job available in Los Angeles, right?

18 A. No, that’s why I was asking.

19 Q. Okay. Right. Okay. And approximately when

20 did you ask him; do you know?

21 A. Maybe three weeks into the job.

22 Q. Okay. And Mr. Jackson was always nice to

23 you, wasn’t he?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And as far as you know, there may not have

26 been a job available in Los Angeles, right?

27 A. He told me there was one.

28 Q. He told you there was one?

5756

 

 

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Where did he say?

3 A. A&R, his record label.

4 Q. Pardon me?

5 A. A&R of his record label.

6 Q. Had you ever worked at a record label

7 before?

8 A. No, I hadn’t.

9 Q. All right. But at some point you learned

10 that you weren’t being hired, right?

11 A. No. As a matter of fact, I saw Michael

12 again at his birthday party in Los Angeles and he

13 told me I was still hired.

14 Q. Okay. But it never came through, right?

15 A. No, I’m still waiting for my paycheck now.

16 Q. Okay. You’re trying to write a book about

17 your experiences at Neverland, correct?

18 A. Well, no, I’m not trying to write a book

19 about my experiences at Neverland.

20 Q. Well, didn’t you — excuse me. Did you say

21 Michael Jackson has a record label?

22 A. He told me he had a record label.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know that he doesn’t have one?

24 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; assumes facts.

25 THE COURT: Sustained.

26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know whether or not

27 he really has a record label?

28 A. I was just told by him he had a record

5757

 

 

1 label.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you prepared notes

3 for a book called “Entering Neverland, Secrets

4 Behind the Gate,” right?

5 A. Does it have my signature on it? Because I

6 know that within the last month or two, I started

7 jotting down information to myself and somehow my

8 information come up missing out of my house, but

9 whatever.

10 Q. Did you prepare notes for a book titled

11 “Entering Neverland, Secrets Behind the Gate” —

12 A. No.

13 Q. — “By Dwayne Swingler, Head Supervisor of

14 Neverland Ranch, Summer of 2003,” did you prepare

15 that?

16 A. No.

17 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; asked and

18 answered.

19 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer is, “No.”

20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you aware of anything

21 like that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You didn’t —

24 A. Am I aware of it? What do you mean?

25 Q. Yeah. Have you written out anything for a

26 book called “Entering Neverland, Secrets Behind the

27 Gate, by Dwayne Swingler”?

28 A. No, I haven’t written anything, or titled

5758

 

 

1 anything, or signed anything, or spoke to anybody

2 about, “This is my deal.”

3 Q. Have you talked to a group called News of

4 the World?

5 A. Have I?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yeah, I spoke with one lady one time, yes.

8 Q. And to your knowledge, who is News of the

9 World?

10 A. To my knowledge, it’s a news media overseas.

11 Q. And why were you speaking to them?

12 A. Because I was interested in maybe possibly

13 writing down some information to — to cash in on

14 something like everybody else was, because Michael

15 wasn’t — I hadn’t received the paycheck from A&R at

16 the time.

17 Q. Okay. Did you enter into a nondisclosure

18 agreement with News of the World?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Have you ever seen one?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. Did you ever talk to someone named David

23 Han-Schmidt?

24 A. The same time I spoke with the News of the

25 World lady, he’s the one that contacted her and

26 contacted me.

27 Q. And to your knowledge, who is David

28 Han-Schmidt?

5759

 

 

1 A. He said that he was a media agent. I don’t

2 even know how he got my phone number.

3 Q. When did you last talk to David Han-Schmidt?

4 A. He — as a matter of fact, he called me

5 today.

6 Q. And to your knowledge, is he with a public

7 relations company?

8 A. I really don’t know what he did. He never

9 clarified that with me. He said he was an agent, he

10 was a producer, he was in public relations. I

11 basically ended the situation.

12 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone ever send you

13 a nondisclosure agreement regarding News of the

14 World?

15 A. No. I haven’t signed any nondisclosure

16 agreements, and I haven’t taken any money from

17 anyone.

18 Q. How many discussions have you had with David

19 Han-Schmidt?

20 A. Three. Four. Can’t remember.

21 Q. And when was the last one with him? Today?

22 A. He called me today, because he said he heard

23 that I was coming to testify.

24 Q. Okay. Have you ever put together any notes

25 for a possible book on the computer?

26 A. Excuse me?

27 Q. Have you ever put any notes for a possible

28 book on your computer?

5760

 

 

1 A. No, I haven’t.

2 Q. Have you ever written any notes out for a

3 possible book?

4 A. I told you I jotted down some information on

5 a piece of paper, and that’s all I’ve done.

6 Q. Did you ever ask any public relations person

7 to put together a proposal for you?

8 A. No, I haven’t.

9 Q. But you’re thinking of doing it, right, like

10 everybody else?

11 A. Yes, I was thinking about doing it.

12 Q. Okay. Okay. Have you ever seen — excuse

13 me. Has anyone ever brought to your attention that

14 somebody has prepared notes for a possible book in

15 your name?

16 A. David.

17 Q. David Han-Schmidt?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he prepare them, to your knowledge?

20 A. He just said he received papers. I don’t

21 know — like I told you, I don’t even know how he

22 got my phone number.

23 Q. Okay. If I showed you these papers, might

24 it refresh your recollection about where they came

25 from?

26 A. No, it probably wouldn’t, because I never

27 typed any papers or wrote out — the only thing I

28 did was write down notes, jotted down notes on a

5761

 

 

1 piece of paper.

2 Q. Okay. And that was about your experience

3 during the five weeks at Neverland?

4 A. That was about my experience totally, not

5 just the five weeks at Neverland. That was my

6 experience with Michael’s manager and everything.

7 Q. Okay. Did you ever write down on those

8 notes the words “Secrets Behind the Gate”?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. Okay. Did David Han-Schmidt tell you how he

11 got your name?

12 A. No, he did not.

13 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask him, “Why did you

14 call me?”

15 A. Well, actually, he started the conversation

16 off, and he just, whew, went straight to talking

17 about a lot of money, so I was listening to him

18 about a lot of money first.

19 Q. Did he promise you a lot of money?

20 A. That’s what he promised, yes.

21 Q. Okay. How much money did he promise?

22 A. He never said figures. He just said, you

23 know, “You can make a lot of money.” You know, “Why

24 aren’t you telling anyone your story?” That’s what

25 he said to me.

26 Q. It’s your understanding that he’s located in

27 Phoenix, Arizona?

28 A. Yes. That’s where he said he’s from.

5762

 

 

1 Q. Okay. Did he ever tell you he was going to

2 prepare a possible manuscript for you?

3 A. He asked me would I like him to, and I said

4 no. Like I told you, I terminated the conversation

5 when he told me what he wanted to do.

6 Q. Okay. And did he want some scandal sheet

7 about Michael, something like that?

8 A. Actually, he’s for Michael. He’s pro

9 Michael.

10 Q. Did he want you to write something about

11 Michael?

12 A. He wanted to speak on Michael’s behalf, yes.

13 Q. Okay. And how often — in those three

14 conversations, did you talk about money each time?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Okay. Have you ever spoken to Miss Carol

17 Maung, M-a-u-n-g, who is the U.S. editor of News of

18 the World?

19 A. I spoke with her. I spoke with her when she

20 was with David when I got there.

21 Q. And did she fax you anything or e-mail you

22 anything?

23 A. Fax me anything or e-mail me anything?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. No, sir.

26 Q. Okay. All right. When you were at

27 Neverland working —

28 A. Yes.

5763

 

 

1 Q. — you had no direct contact with any member

2 of the Arvizo family, right?

3 A. The Arvizo family?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. That means you didn’t have any contact with

7 the Arvizos?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember meeting Dominick

10 Cascio at Neverland?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And he’s the — did you speak to him?

13 A. Often.

14 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, he’s a father?

15 A. He’s a father?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I didn’t know he was a father.

18 Q. Okay. Did he ever talk to you about work he

19 did?

20 A. Did Dominick ever talk to me about work he

21 did?

22 Q. Yeah.

23 A. Some work at the restaurant that his family

24 owned.

25 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I have no further

26 questions, Your Honor.

27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Counsel?

28 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

5764

 

 

1 table.)

2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Maybe we should approach.

3 Your Honor, may we approach?

4 THE COURT: For what?

5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Concerning the materials

6 that counsel is using to cross-examine the witness

7 on.

8 THE COURT: All right.

9 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)

10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: If I could just have a

11 moment, Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Yes.

13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I think I can finish with

14 this witness, Your Honor. Just one question.

15

16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:

18 Q. Mr. Swingler, do you know if David Schmidt

19 has any affiliation with Michael Jackson?

20 A. I just know that he has a website; that

21 he’s, you know, pro Michael Jackson.

22 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Thank you.

23 I have no further questions.

24 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your

25 Honor.

26 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may

27 step down.

28 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

5765

 

 

1 THE COURT: Do you have another witness?

2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: (To Mr. Sneddon) Go

3 ahead.

4 MR. SNEDDON: You.

5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Do you want me to do it?

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. SNEDDON: We’re trying to figure out

8 which one of us should take responsibility for

9 telling you “No.”

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. SNEDDON: And being the great delegator

12 I am, I’m leaving it up to Gordon.

13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: We have no further

14 witnesses, Your Honor. We just anticipated that

15 there would be — it would take a little longer to

16 get through these witnesses today.

17 THE COURT: All right. There’s a couple of

18 items that we can take up. I’ll go ahead and excuse

19 the jury.

20 (To the jury) Remember the admonitions I’ve

21 given you and I’ll see you tomorrow morning at 8:30.

22 But it’s a half day tomorrow, remember. How could

23 you forget, right?

24

25 (The following proceedings were held in

26 open court outside the presence and hearing of the

27 jury:)

28

5766

 

 

1 THE COURT: All right. First, there was —

2 my understanding is that the special master will

3 have the report available tomorrow morning for you

4 on the computer hard drives.

5 MR. SNEDDON: On both of them, Your Honor?

6 THE COURT: Yes. They’re working on some

7 last-minute details. So it will be available

8 tomorrow morning.

9 MR. SNEDDON: Now, at that point, then, Your

10 Honor, does it need to go to you for final decision,

11 or is that the decision?

12 THE COURT: I don’t know. I haven’t read

13 the report. I was handed a rough draft of one by my

14 research attorney this morning — well, not this

15 morning, a few minutes ago. And I asked him to talk

16 to Mr. Sanger about an issue. So I can’t answer

17 your question.

18 MR. SNEDDON: Okay.

19 THE COURT: I suspect it doesn’t need to go

20 beyond what’s been done by the special master, so —

21 MR. SNEDDON: Okay.

22 THE COURT: But I won’t know till I’ve looked

23 at it.

24 The second thing is that both of you have

25 submitted points and authorities on Janet Arvizo.

26 The District Attorney’s I’ve read.

27 And I just received the defense, so I

28 haven’t had time to read yours.

5767

 

 

1 When do you expect to call Janet Arvizo?

2 MR. ZONEN: Either tomorrow or Wednesday.

3 Depending on if we finish the witnesses scheduled

4 before her tomorrow. If not —

5 THE COURT: They can’t hear behind you.

6 (To the audience) He said either tomorrow

7 or Wednesday.

8 MR. ZONEN: As early as tomorrow.

9 THE COURT: As early as tomorrow.

10 Okay. Well, I’m not really prepared to deal

11 with that issue. We’ll have to deal with it before

12 she’s called, but I’ll need to study the material

13 you’ve given me, the defense has given me.

14 MR. ZONEN: Thank you.

15 THE COURT: Was there anything else pending?

16 MR. SANGER: On that issue, Your Honor, as I

17 explained to you, as I explained to your clerk, we

18 were served with their papers this morning. We

19 thought they might call Ms. Arvizo today.

20 THE COURT: Right.

21 MR. SANGER: So we put something together

22 very quickly, and I would like to have an

23 opportunity to explain to the Court a little more,

24 in a little more organized fashion, where this goes,

25 now that we’ve had a few more minutes to think about

26 it.

27 THE COURT: I’ll make sure you have that

28 opportunity.

5768

 

 

1 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you.

2 THE COURT: All right. Then we’ll recess

3 until tomorrow morning.

4 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)

5 –o0o–

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

5769

 

 

1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE

2

3

4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )

5 OF CALIFORNIA, )

6 Plaintiff, )

7 -vs- ) No. 1133603

8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

9 Defendant. )

10

11

12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,

13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby

14 certify:

15 That the foregoing pages 5582 through 5769

16 contain a true and correct transcript of the

17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled

18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at

19 said proceedings on April 11, 2005, and thereafter

20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

21 transcription under my direction.

22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,

23 April 11, 2005.

24

25

26

27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304

28

5770

Wade Robson Official 2005 Court Testimony

This is the official testimony of Wade Robson in the 2005 Michael Jackson trial in Santa Maria, CA.  These are official court documents that were sent to me directly from Mr. Thomas Mesereau, the lead defense counsel for the case.

 

THE COURT:  The Court’s going to deny the

15   1118 motion.  The request to dismiss the charges is

16   denied.

17           I’m going to bring in the jury.  Are you

18   prepared to call your first witness?

19           MR. SANGER:  Yes, Your Honor.

20           THE COURT:  All right.

21           MR. MESEREAU:  Excuse me, Your Honor?

22   There’s a motion in limine that the prosecution made

23   about a couple witnesses we plan to call.

24           THE COURT:  They don’t seem to be the first

25   two.

26           MR. MESEREAU:  They’re not the first two.

27           THE COURT:  So I’ll put that off.

28           Get the jury in.

9089

1           MR. MESEREAU:  Okay.  Thank you.

2

3           (The following proceedings were held in

4   open court in the presence and hearing of the

5   jury:)

6

7           THE COURT:  Good afternoon.

8           THE JURY:  (In unison) Good afternoon.

9           THE COURT:  You may proceed.

10           THE CLERK:  Judge, we need to swear the

11   witness.

12           THE COURT:  All right.  Please raise your

13   right hand and face the clerk.

14

15                         WADE J. ROBSON

16           Having been sworn, testified as follows:

17

18           THE WITNESS:  I do.

19           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.  State and

20   spell your name for the record.

21           THE WITNESS:  My name is Wade J. Robson,

22   spelled W-a-d-e, initial J., R-o-b-s-o-n.

23           THE CLERK:  Thank you.

24           MR. MESEREAU:  May I proceed, Your Honor?

25           THE COURT:  You may.

26  //

27  //

28  //

9090

1                      DIRECT EXAMINATION

2   BY MR. MESEREAU:

3       Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Robson.

4       A.  How you doing.

5       Q.  How old are you?

6       A.  I am 22.

7       Q.  And would you please give the — please just

8   summarize your employment history.

9       A.  My employment history.

10           I started dancing when I was two,

11   professionally when I was five.  In Australia

12   originally.  And moved to America when I was eight.

13   Became a professional dancer.  Started teaching

14   dance classes when I was 12.  I was in a rap duo

15   when I was 11 and 12.  Started choreographing for

16   different artists when I was 14, and now I’m

17   directing film.

18       Q.  And where do you live at the moment?

19       A.  I live in Tarzana, California.

20       Q.  Okay.  And you say you’re directing films?

21       A.  Yeah.

22       Q.  And can you summarize what you’re doing in

23   that regard?

24       A.  The main focus right now, I did a short film

25   that I wrote and produced and directed last year,

26   and that’s doing the whole film festival circuit

27   right now.  And I have a three-picture deal with

28   Disney as a film director, and we’re developing an

9091

1   original musical.

2       Q.  Do you know the fellow seated at counsel

3   table to my right?

4       A.  Yes.

5       Q.  And who is that?

6       A.  That’s Michael Jackson.

7       Q.  How do you know him?

8       A.  I met him first when I was five years old.

9   I think it was ’87.  And Michael was touring, he was

10   doing the “Bad” tour.  And I was imitating him as a

11   dancer at that point.  And he was holding these —

12   it was in connection with Target or something like

13   that, holding these dance, like, contests all around

14   wherever he traveled.  So I entered one of the dance

15   contests and ended up winning it, went on to the

16   finals and won that, and then the prize was to meet

17   Michael.

18           So I met him after one of his concerts in

19   Brisbane, Australia.  And it was just like in a

20   meet-and-greet sort of room.  And we met, and I was

21   in my whole, you know, “Bad” outfit and everything.

22   He was sort of laughing and tripping out on my

23   outfit and asked if I danced.  I said, “Yeah.”  And

24   he asked me to perform with him in the show the next

25   night.

26           So after — it was like the end of the

27   concert, I pulled up, performed in the show with

28   him.  The next — the next — I think within the

9092

1   next couple of days, my mother and I went to visit

2   him at his hotel room, and we stayed for a couple of

3   hours.  It was in Brisbane, Australia.  Just talking

4   about what I want to do.  And then that was kind of

5   it at first.

6           And then for the next two years, we didn’t

7   have any contact at all.  And I continued pursuing

8   my dance career in Australia.  And then the company

9   that I was with, the dance company, was traveling to

10   America to do a performance at Disneyland.

11           So we all went.  Came out, did that

12   performance.  As I said, we’d had no contact with

13   Michael or anything.  Somehow my mother got in

14   contact with Michael’s secretary at that time, who

15   was Norma Stokes.

16           MR. ZONEN:  Your Honor, I’m going to object

17   to the narrative form of the answer.

18           THE COURT:  Sustained.

19       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  After your mother got in

20   contact with Norma Stakos, what happened next?

21       A.  She talked to Michael about — we wanted to

22   see if we could hook up with him again and meet him

23   again.  She talked to Michael.  Michael remembered

24   me from when I met him when I was five years old,

25   wanted to meet me again.

26           So I was out there with my mother, sister,

27   my father, and grandparents.  We all went to meet

28   him at Record One Recording Studios.  And this

9093

1   was — this was ’89.

2       Q.  Where is Record One Recording Studios?

3       A.  I don’t remember exactly.  It’s somewhere in

4   the valley, yeah.  In California.  Yeah.

5       Q.  And what happened next?

6       A.  We met up with him.  He was in between, you

7   know, working on music and that sort of thing.  He

8   was doing a photo shoot at the time at the studio.

9   We took some photos with him.  My family and I all

10   went into his — sort of like the green room, and

11   played him some videotapes of all the dancing stuff

12   that I’ve been doing over the last two years.  And,

13   you know, he was just really excited, checking out

14   everything I had done.  And then by the end of the

15   time, he invited my family and I up to the ranch

16   that weekend.

17       Q.  And did you begin a friendship with Mr.

18   Jackson?

19       A.  Yes.

20       Q.  Did you spend much time at Neverland?

21       A.  Yeah.  Spent a lot of time, yeah.

22       Q.  When do you think you first went to

23   Neverland?

24       A.  It was right after that visit.  I’m pretty

25   sure it was that night that we went, my whole family

26   went to the ranch.  And, you know, we stayed for, I

27   don’t know, about a week or something like that.

28       Q.  And approximately what year do you think you

9094

1   first went to Neverland, Mr. Robson?

2       A.  That was 1989.

3       Q.  Okay.  And who did you go to Neverland with

4   the first time?

5       A.  Went with my mother, my sister, my father,

6   and my grandfather, grandmother.

7       Q.  And how long did you stay during that first

8   visit?

9       A.  I think it was about a week.

10       Q.  And after you spent a week at Neverland,

11   what did you do?

12       A.  Went back to Australia.

13       Q.  Okay.  Did you see Mr. Jackson again?

14       A.  Yeah.  We would — I don’t remember exact

15   dates, but over the next two years, my mother and I

16   would come out, I don’t know, maybe twice a year,

17   something like that, and spend a couple of weeks

18   with Michael.

19       Q.  Would you spend the night at Neverland?

20       A.  Some of it was at Neverland.  Sometimes it

21   would be at the — he had an apartment in I think it

22   was Westwood at that point that we would stay at

23   sometimes, too.

24       Q.  That’s your mother and you would stay at the

25   apartment in Westwood?

26       A.  Yeah.  That first time, I think a couple

27   times, sometimes I would stay by myself.  Always —

28   I think — sometimes — most of the time my mother

9095

1   and I went to the ranch together.  I think once I

2   was there by myself without my mother.  There was

3   other people there.

4       Q.  And did you stay in contact Mr. Jackson

5   through those years?

6       A.  Yes.

7       Q.  And how would you communicate with Mr.

8   Jackson?

9       A.  When we weren’t there, you know, we’d talk

10   on the phone or we’d send faxes back and forth.

11       Q.  At some point did you move to the United

12   States permanently?

13       A.  Yeah.  We moved in September of 1991.  My

14   mother and sister and I.

15       Q.  Have you lived here ever since?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  Have you lived in Los Angeles ever since?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  Now, your mother’s name is?

20       A.  Joy Robson.

21       Q.  And how about your sister?

22       A.  Chantel Robson.

23       Q.  Okay.  How many times do you think you’ve

24   stayed at Neverland?

25       A.  Um, it’s got to be somewhere in the twenties

26   or something like that.  Mid-twenties.

27       Q.  And have you stayed there for varying

28   periods of time?

9096

1       A.  Yeah.  Most of the time it’s usually like a

2   weekend, you know.  Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

3       Q.  What’s the longest amount of time, do you

4   think, you’ve ever stayed at Neverland?

5       A.  You know, I would say a week to a week and a

6   half.

7       Q.  Do you consider Michael Jackson your friend?

8       A.  Yes.

9       Q.  Do you consider him a close friend?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  You’re aware of the allegations in this

12   case, are you not?

13       A.  Yes.

14       Q.  And are you aware, as you sit here today,

15   that there’s been allegations that Mr. Jackson

16   molested you?

17       A.  Yes.

18       Q.  Mr. Robson, did Michael Jackson ever molest

19   you at any time?

20       A.  Absolutely not.

21       Q.  Mr. Robson, did Michael Jackson ever touch

22   you in a sexual way?

23       A.  Never, no.

24       Q.  Mr. Robson, has Mr. Jackson ever

25   inappropriately touched any part of your body at any

26   time?

27       A.  No.

28       Q.  When you first visited Neverland — and I

9097

1   think you said it was about a week you and your mom

2   stayed there?

3       A.  Yeah.

4       Q.  Where did you stay?

5       A.  I stayed in Michael’s room.

6       Q.  And could you please describe the room for

7   the jury?

8       A.  When you walk in, there’s — there’s a bed,

9   sort of like the main bed, diagonally to your left.

10   Wood floors.  There’s a second floor that you go

11   around to the right and up, which also has another

12   bed.  There’s a bathroom to the left.  There’s

13   bathrooms on both sides of the main bed on the first

14   floor.

15       Q.  And you stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  The first time you were there?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  To your knowledge, has your mother ever

20   stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room?

21       A.  In the room?  No.

22       Q.  How about your sister?

23       A.  Yes.

24       Q.  And when do you recall your sister staying

25   in the room?

26       A.  On that first trip, the first time we went

27   to Neverland.

28       Q.  Okay.  What do you recall doing at Neverland

9098

1   during that first visit when you spent approximately

2   a week?

3       A.  Well, at that point he didn’t have many of

4   the rides.  We would watch movies in the theater.

5   You know, we’d play video games.  We’d drive around

6   on the golf carts, look at the animals.  Those sort

7   of things.

8       Q.  Has Mr. Jackson ever helped you with your

9   career?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  What has he done?

12       A.  When I first moved out here, when I was

13   nine, he put me in a couple of his music videos.  I

14   was in the “Jam” music video, “Black or White” music

15   video, and “Heal the World.”  And that sort of

16   helped me get a dance agent, dance agency, and —

17   and, yeah.

18           And then the next thing, when I said I was

19   in a rap duo when I was 11 and 12, that was on

20   Michael Jackson’s label under Sony.

21       Q.  Do you recall the second time you ever

22   visited Neverland?

23       A.  No, I don’t.

24       Q.  Do you recall staying in Mr. Jackson’s room

25   on other occasions?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  And typically when you’d stay in Mr.

28   Jackson’s room, what would you do?

9099

1       A.  What would we do as far as just —

2       Q.  Sure.  Anything.

3       A.  Yeah.  We’d watch — same thing.  We’d watch

4   movies, we’d play video games, you know, we’d have a

5   pillow fight every now and then.  We’d talk.  Hang

6   out.

7       Q.  How many times do you think you’ve stayed in

8   Mr. Jackson’s room at Neverland?

9       A.  Same amount of times as I’ve been there.

10   Well, no, that’s not true, I’m sorry.  I’ve been

11   there a bunch of times without Michael, just with

12   other friends and family traveling there.  But, I

13   don’t know, maybe 15 to 20.

14       Q.  And at no time has any sexual contact ever

15   occurred between you and Mr. Jackson, right?

16       A.  Never.

17       Q.  Have you ever taken a shower with Mr.

18   Jackson?

19       A.  No.

20       Q.  Have you ever gone swimming with Mr.

21   Jackson?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  And please explain what you mean.

24       A.  One time with my sister and I, my sister and

25   I and Michael, we went in the Jacuzzi at Neverland

26   Ranch.

27       Q.  And do you know approximately when that was?

28       A.  I don’t.  I can’t say for sure.  I have a

9100

1   feeling that it was within that first trip in ’89

2   when I went there.

3       Q.  Do you recall what Mr. Jackson was wearing

4   in the Jacuzzi?

5       A.  From my recollection, he was wearing shorts.

6   You know, like swimming shorts.  And that was it.

7       Q.  Did anything inappropriate ever happen in

8   that Jacuzzi?

9       A.  No.

10       Q.  Has anything inappropriate ever happened in

11   any shower with you and Mr. Jackson?

12       A.  No.  Never been in a shower with him.

13       Q.  Did you get to know any of the employees at

14   Neverland when you were there?

15       A.  I wouldn’t say “get to know.”  You know, I

16   knew of them and we’d know each other’s names, but

17   it never went beyond that.

18       Q.  Do you recall someone named Blanca Francia?

19       A.  Yes, I remember her name.  And I remember

20   her presence.  I can’t place her.  I can’t remember

21   what she looks like or anything like that.

22       Q.  Do you know whether or not Blanca Francia

23   ever was in a room when you were with Mr. Jackson?

24       A.  Not that I can remember.

25       Q.  Okay.  Did you ever meet anyone named Ralph

26   Chacon?

27       A.  No.

28       Q.  How about Kassim Abdool?

9101

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  Do you recall anyone named Adrian McManus?

3       A.  No.

4       Q.  Did you have much interaction with the

5   security people when you were visiting and staying

6   at Neverland?

7       A.  No.  The only interaction would be is, I

8   don’t know, if — if they were trying — if we were

9   out, you know, watching a movie or something like

10   that, they’d come tell us that dinner was ready or

11   something like that.

12           In later years, when I would go there and

13   just visit with my family and that sort of thing,

14   sometimes we’d have water fights and get the

15   security involved.  But other than that, no.

16       Q.  Did you come across anyone named Mrs.

17   Chandler when you were at Neverland?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  And when do you think this was?

20       A.  I think I was about 13.  But I can’t

21   pinpoint any more — anything more definitive than

22   that.  Around that time.

23       Q.  Do you recall ever seeing someone at

24   Neverland talking to Mrs. Chandler?

25       A.  Sorry?  Can you repeat that?

26       Q.  Did you ever see Mrs. Chandler talking to

27   anyone at Neverland?

28       A.  Yeah, I mean, maybe chefs or — you know, or

9102

1   maids or something like that.

2       Q.  What do you recall Mrs. Chandler doing at

3   Neverland?

4       A.  I think I mainly saw her if we’d sit down to

5   eat dinner or something like that.  That’s the only

6   time I saw her.

7       Q.  Did you ever see her ordering people around

8   at Neverland?

9       A.  Yeah, well —

10           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as leading.

11           THE COURT:  Sustained.

12       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  When you saw Mrs. Chandler

13   talking to these people at Neverland, what do you

14   recall her doing?

15           MR. ZONEN:  I’ll object as irrelevant and

16   vague.

17           MR. MESEREAU:  There’s been testimony by

18   her, Your Honor, about what she saw.

19           THE COURT:  I’ll allow the question.

20           You may answer.  Do you want it read back?

21           THE WITNESS:  Yes, please.

22           (Record read.)

23           THE WITNESS:  I remember her, you know,

24   ordering food, that sort of thing, from maids or

25   chefs, or whatever.

26           And, you know, the thing I sort of noticed

27   was she was always sort of — you know, she would

28   sort of act like the place was hers, you know.  Sort

9103

1   of order people around a bit.

2           And, you know, I guess I noticed it because

3   my mother, when we went there, she always made it

4   really clear that this was Michael Jackson’s house.

5   This was somebody’s house and —

6           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as

7   nonresponsive to the question and narrative.

8           THE COURT:  All right.  The last sentence is

9   stricken.

10       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Mr. Robson, has anyone

11   told you what to say in this courtroom today?

12       A.  No.

13       Q.  Is everything you’ve said the complete and

14   honest truth?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  Did Mr. Jackson ever do anything wrong with

17   you?

18       A.  No.

19           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

20           THE COURT:  Cross-examine?

21

22                       CROSS-EXAMINATION

23  BY MR. ZONEN:

24       Q.  Mr. Robson, good afternoon.

25       A.  Good afternoon.

26       Q.  Have you been living in the United States

27   continuously since you were eight years old?

28       A.  Yes.

9104

1       Q.  Was Mr. Jackson instrumental in your being

2   able to move to the United States to pursue your

3   career?

4       A.  Yes.

5       Q.  Are you grateful for Mr. Jackson’s help and

6   assistance in the development of your career?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  Did you go to high school or college at all?

9       A.  No.

10       Q.  Not either one?

11       A.  I didn’t go to a public high school.  I did

12   home studies.

13       Q.  You did home studies all through high

14   school?

15       A.  Yeah.

16       Q.  And no college at all?

17       A.  No.

18       Q.  So you began your dance career early on and

19   continued through to today; is that correct?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  All right.  Now, the first time that you

22   slept with Mr. Jackson you were seven years old; is

23   that correct?

24       A.  I slept in the same bed with him.  But, yes,

25   I was seven.

26       Q.  Did you understand my question to mean

27   something other than that?

28       A.  Sounded like it.

9105

1       Q.  All right.  But you slept in the same bed

2   with him when you were seven years old; is that

3   correct?

4       A.  Yes.

5       Q.  Was anybody else in that bed with you?

6       A.  My sister, Chantel Robson.

7       Q.  She was ten years old; is that right?

8       A.  Yes.

9       Q.  Is it true that there was not another adult

10   anywhere in that room at the time you crawled into

11   bed with Mr. Jackson?

12       A.  True.

13       Q.  And in fact, you continued to sleep with Mr.

14   Jackson through the balance of that week during your

15   seventh year; is that right?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  Was your sister there the entire time during

18   that week as well?

19       A.  Yes.

20       Q.  Was she in that bed with you as well?

21       A.  Yes.

22       Q.  Did she continue to share a bed with you and

23   Mr. Jackson thereafter, or did you sleep only with

24   Mr. Jackson thereafter?

25       A.  What do you mean by “thereafter”?

26       Q.  Well, on all the occasions that you returned

27   to visit Mr. Jackson’s ranch, did you stay in his

28   room, by yourself, with him?

9106

1       A.  Yes.  But my sister wasn’t in — wasn’t with

2   us at all in America.

3       Q.  All right.  So when you moved here — and

4   incidentally, your father was there during that

5   first week when you were seven years old; is that

6   right?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  But your father did not return to visit

9   thereafter?

10       A.  No.

11       Q.  All right.  So you stayed in the United

12   States.  Your father stayed in Australia.

13       A.  Yes.

14       Q.  Did your mother stay in the United States?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  For the balance of the next number of years,

17   your father was simply not in the picture while you

18   were in the United States; is that right?

19       A.  He wasn’t there with us, no.

20       Q.  And Mr. Jackson understood that as well, did

21   he not, that your father was not in the picture

22   while you were at Neverland?

23       A.  Well, he understood that he wasn’t there,

24   yes.

25       Q.  Okay.  And did you have any contact with

26   your father at all?

27       A.  Yes.  We talked on the phone.

28       Q.  By telephone?

9107

1       A.  Yeah.

2       Q.  Did you visit him?

3       A.  I’m sorry, are we talking about once I moved

4   to America?

5       Q.  Yes.

6       A.  Oh, yes, we would go back at least every two

7   years for Christmas.

8       Q.  Did he ever come to the United States to

9   visit you?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  Did he have any other visits with you at

12   Neverland?

13       A.  No.

14       Q.  Did you talk with your mother, prior to that

15   first week that you slept with Mr. Jackson with your

16   sister, about the sleeping arrangements at all?

17       A.  Well, yeah, the first day that we got there,

18   to Neverland Ranch — you know, I think we got there

19   in about the afternoon.  We hung out a bit.

20           When it was time to go bed, I asked Michael

21   if I could stay with him in his room.  And then

22   Michael and I went to — mom was staying in a guest

23   room.  We went to her room and I asked her.  Michael

24   asked her if that was okay.  And she said yes.

25       Q.  All right.  Now, you asked Michael Jackson

26   if you could share his room with him.  Now, what

27   caused you to do that?  You were seven years old.

28   What caused you to ask him if you could stay with

9108

1   him in his room?

2       A.  Well, it’s the same way with any child.

3   When you — you know, when you have a best friend or

4   a new friend that you found, you always want to stay

5   in the same room with them.

6       Q.  He was in his mid 30s; is that right?

7       A.  Yes, I guess so.

8       Q.  Had you ever crawled into bed with a

9   30-year-old man prior to that day?

10       A.  My father.

11       Q.  Okay.

12       A.  But other than that, no.

13       Q.  Any person who you had just met?

14       A.  No.

15       Q.  All right.  And in fact, throughout your

16   entire adolescent years, you had never slept with

17   any other man other than Michael Jackson and your

18   father; is that correct?

19       A.  Never slept in a bed with any other man, no.

20       Q.  Now, you had a conversation with your mother

21   about where you would sleep that night, that first

22   time.  Again, you’re seven years old; is that right?

23       A.  Yeah.

24       Q.  Did your mother talk to you about perhaps

25   you should stay with her in the guest cottage?

26       A.  No.

27       Q.  Was she the one who suggested that your

28   sister should go with you and stay in that room with

9109

1   Mr. Jackson?

2       A.  I don’t remember that.  I remember Chantel,

3   my sister, wanted to as well.

4       Q.  Had your mother actually seen the room

5   that — or the rooms that constitute Mr. Jackson’s

6   bedroom suite?

7       A.  Yeah.  When we first got to the ranch, he

8   took us around, a tour around everywhere, in his

9   room.

10       Q.  So she understood at the time that the

11   bedroom suite was composed of a number of different

12   rooms with actually beds in at least two of them; is

13   that right?

14       A.  Yes.

15       Q.  And there were bathrooms on both levels; is

16   that right?

17       A.  I don’t think there’s a bathroom on the

18   second level.  There’s two on the first level.

19       Q.  Was your mother under the impression that

20   you would be sleeping in a different location from

21   Michael Jackson when you first went to his room at

22   age seven?

23       A.  Not that I know of.

24       Q.  All right.  Had you talked with her the next

25   day about where you actually slept that prior night?

26       A.  No, not that I remember.

27       Q.  At any time during that first week when you

28   were there at age seven, did you ever tell your

9110

1   mother that you actually shared the bed with Michael

2   Jackson?

3       A.  I’m sure.

4       Q.  You think you did?

5       A.  Yeah.

6       Q.  Do you remember your mother’s response to

7   hearing that?

8       A.  No.

9       Q.  Did your sister, in your presence, tell your

10   mother that she was also sleeping in the same bed

11   with Michael Jackson at age ten?

12       A.  I can’t say for sure.  I don’t remember,

13   but —

14       Q.  At any time during that first week that you

15   were there, did you have any conversation with your

16   mother wherein your mother expressed concern about

17   where you were sleeping?

18       A.  No.

19       Q.  Were you seeing your mother during the day?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  All right.  After that first week, did you

22   go back to Australia?

23       A.  Yeah.

24       Q.  You were in Australia for what, about a

25   year?

26       A.  I think so.  I don’t remember.

27       Q.  And then you returned to the United States

28   for good at that point?

9111

1       A.  Well, we had a couple of visits back to

2   America before we returned in ’91 for good.

3       Q.  With what rate of frequency did you continue

4   to visit with Michael Jackson after returning at age

5   eight?

6       A.  I would say twice a year.

7       Q.  All right.  And during those periods of

8   time, you would stay for up to a week at a time, no?

9       A.  Yeah.

10       Q.  Were there times that you actually stayed at

11   Neverland for many weeks at a time?

12       A.  Not that I can remember.  Like I said, a

13   week to a week and a half.  Maybe it was two weeks,

14   but I don’t remember any more than that.

15       Q.  Were there periods of time when you were at

16   Neverland and working with Mr. Jackson on dance

17   routines?

18       A.  No.  I mean, we would mess around and dance

19   a little bit in the studio every now and then, yes.

20       Q.  Was there ever an occasion where you were on

21   the dance floor with Mr. Jackson and he was showing

22   you a routine and he grabbed your crotch in a manner

23   similar to how he would grab his own crotch while

24   doing those performances?

25       A.  No, that’s not true.

26       Q.  You have no recollection of that?

27       A.  No.

28       Q.  That didn’t happen?

9112

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  During the period of time from age eight on,

3   did you stay in Mr. Jackson’s room virtually the

4   entire time?

5       A.  I’m sorry?

6       Q.  The times that you would come and visit Mr.

7   Jackson from age eight on —

8       A.  Uh-huh.

9       Q.  — did you stay in Mr. Jackson’s room?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  All right.  By age 11, you were asked to

12   give a deposition, were you not?

13       A.  Yes.

14       Q.  And you actually did give testimony under

15   oath in the presence of two prosecutors from Los

16   Angeles; is that right?

17       A.  Yes.

18       Q.  There was also an attorney present who

19   represented you; is that correct?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  All right.  After that deposition, did you

22   continue to sleep in Mr. Jackson’s room?

23       A.  Yes.

24       Q.  Did you continue to sleep in Mr. Jackson’s

25   bed?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  All right.  Now, during that period of time

28   from age eight until age 11, did you frequently

9113

1   visit Mr. Jackson?

2       A.  From — I’m sorry, from eight to 11?

3       Q.  Age eight to age 11, did you frequently

4   visit Mr. Jackson?

5       A.  Yeah.  Same amount of time.  Maybe twice a

6   year, or every couple of months, something like

7   that.

8       Q.  Is it safe to say that during each of those

9   visits, you stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  All right.  Were there ever occasions where

12   you went to visit Mr. Jackson when your mother

13   wasn’t there?

14       A.  Yes.  I think a couple of times he had an

15   apartment in Century City that my mother would drop

16   me off and I’d stay for, you know, a night or so by

17   myself with Michael there.

18       Q.  Was that a place called “The Hideout”?

19       A.  I remember a place called “The Hideout.”

20   I don’t remember if it was that place.

21       Q.  Were there more places where you visited and

22   stayed overnight in Century City?

23       A.  Yeah, there was a hotel that was — I mean,

24   I’m sorry, an apartment that was in Westwood and

25   then one that was in Century City.

26       Q.  Was there a place where Mr. Jackson was

27   living in, either Westwood or Century City, where

28   there was a hotel across the street?

9114

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  And would it be the case that periodically

3   you would visit him there, your mother would stay in

4   the hotel, but you would stay with him in his room?

5       A.  One time when we came over, we stayed — I

6   think it was the Westwood apartment, his Westwood

7   apartment.  There was a Holiday Inn that was across

8   and we stayed there most of the time.  And then

9   certain nights I would go over to Michael and stay

10   with him.

11       Q.  Mr. Robson, were there ever occasions where

12   you stayed with Michael Jackson where you didn’t

13   sleep with him in his bed?

14       A.  Yes.

15       Q.  How often did that happen?

16       A.  I don’t know.  Maybe three, four times.

17       Q.  Three or four times over years we’re talking

18   about; is that right?

19       A.  Yes.

20       Q.  So, for the most part, the overwhelming

21   majority of times you shared his bed with him?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  Now, at any time did you start to develop

24   conversations with your mother about the propriety

25   of sleeping with this man who’s now well into his

26   30s?

27       A.  No.

28       Q.  Did you consider it unusual at all?

9115

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  Did your mother consider it unusual?

3       A.  No.

4       Q.  Did you ever talk to your father about it?

5       A.  Yeah.

6       Q.  You talked to your father about your

7   sleeping with Michael Jackson?

8       A.  No, I mean, you know, everybody knew, and

9   nobody ever said that it was — we never talked

10   about it being unusual or anything like that.

11       Q.  Did your mother ever ask you if anything

12   inappropriate happened in bed with him?

13       A.  No.

14       Q.  Did she simply assume nothing happened?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  You’re telling us nothing happened; is that

17   right?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  All right.  What you’re really telling us is

20   nothing happened while you were awake; isn’t that

21   true?

22       A.  I’m telling you that nothing ever happened.

23       Q.  Mr. Robson, when you were asleep, you

24   wouldn’t have known what had happened, particularly

25   at age seven, would you have?

26       A.  I would think something like that would wake

27   me up.

28       Q.  On those occasions that you were at

9116

1   Neverland, you used to play very actively, did you

2   not?

3       A.  Yes.

4       Q.  All right.  There was a lot to do at

5   Neverland; is that right?

6       A.  Yes.

7       Q.  And on some days you were actually working

8   out heavily with the defendant, engaged in dance

9   routines, weren’t you?

10       A.  Yeah.

11       Q.  And on other occasions you would be playing

12   very actively.  There’s just a host of things that a

13   seven-year-old can do and have fun with; is that

14   right?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  And you can play — all manner of video

17   games that exist anywhere in the world can be found

18   at Neverland; is that right?

19       A.  Yeah.

20       Q.  And there’s video games, there’s movies,

21   there’s a zoo, there’s all kinds of parks, and the

22   trains.  You’re very active during the entire day;

23   is that right?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  And at night you’d go back to his room and

26   you’d play more video games or you’d watch

27   television; is that right?

28       A.  Yes.

9117

1       Q.  And there’s movies of any kind that you can

2   see with Mr. Jackson?

3       A.  Yes.

4       Q.  Did your mother ever complain to you that

5   you were losing contact with her and that she was

6   losing her contact with you?  Did she ever say that?

7       A.  No.

8       Q.  In fact, she was very upset over the fact

9   that she was losing her ability to have access to

10   her son, wasn’t she?

11       A.  No.

12       Q.  Was there, in fact, a shower at Neverland in

13   the suite, the bedroom suite?

14       A.  Yes.

15       Q.  But you didn’t use it?

16       A.  I used it by myself.

17       Q.  Was he in the room while you were using it?

18       A.  In the bedroom, not in the shower room,

19   which had its own door.

20       Q.  You were seven years old when you started

21   using that shower; is that correct?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  When did you stop sleeping with Mr. Jackson?

24       A.  I guess when I was about, I don’t know,

25   maybe 13, 14, something like that.

26       Q.  Why did you stop?

27       A.  I didn’t stop sleeping with him.  I just

28   haven’t spent the night with him, I mean, in his

9118

1   room or anything like that since then, I don’t

2   think.

3       Q.  You haven’t gone back to Neverland since you

4   were 13?

5       A.  I have.  Not with him.

6       Q.  Have you gone back to Neverland since you

7   were 13 and actually stayed overnight?

8       A.  Yes.

9       Q.  On how many occasions since you were 13?

10       A.  A lot.  Same thing.  20, 25.  Something like

11   that.

12       Q.  Did he take you to other locations such as

13   Las Vegas?

14       A.  Yes.

15       Q.  And while you were at Las Vegas, you went to

16   see Siegfried & Roy?

17       A.  Yes.

18       Q.  And being with Mr. Jackson back then was a

19   very exciting experience, wasn’t it?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  He was able to go anywhere he wanted in Las

22   Vegas and take you with him?

23       A.  Yeah.

24       Q.  Did you start to dress like him?

25       A.  I always did before I met him.

26       Q.  All right.  And during the time that you

27   were with him, he enjoyed you wearing clothing

28   similar to what he wore; is that correct?

9119

1           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; calls for

2   speculation.

3           THE COURT:  Sustained.

4       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Did he ever tell you that he

5   wanted you to dress like him?

6       A.  No.

7       Q.  Did he ever give you hats similar to the

8   type of hats that he wears?

9       A.  Because I would ask for them.

10       Q.  And did you, in fact, wear those types of

11   hats when you were out with him?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  And when you were in Las Vegas, did you wear

14   those hats as you wandered around Las Vegas with

15   him?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  When you were in Las Vegas, where did you

18   stay?

19       A.  We stayed at The Mirage Hotel.

20       Q.  Who went to Las Vegas with you?

21       A.  My mother.

22       Q.  Just your mother?

23       A.  Yeah.

24       Q.  Was your sister with you at all?

25       A.  No.

26       Q.  Did your sister move to the United States

27   with you?

28       A.  Yes.

9120

1       Q.  But she didn’t go to Las Vegas with you?

2       A.  Well, we weren’t — we didn’t live in the

3   United States at that point.  We still lived in

4   Australia.  We were out on a visit.

5       Q.  When you were in the hotel in Las Vegas, it

6   is true that you stayed with Mr. Jackson in his bed?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  And your mother stayed in a separate room;

9   is that right?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  Now, were there other boys that you knew

12   about who were sleeping with Michael Jackson during

13   that time?

14       A.  No, not that I knew of.  I mean, the only

15   other time I was around other boys, other kids at

16   the ranch, I think once or twice, and, you know,

17   we’d all stay in the room and we’d kind of fall

18   asleep on couches, beds, cots, wherever they were.

19       Q.  Did you know Jordie Chandler?

20       A.  Yeah.

21       Q.  You just described — you just told the jury

22   that — that you knew Jordie Chandler’s mother; is

23   that right?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  What’s her name?

26       A.  I know her — June.  June Chandler.

27       Q.  All right.  Describe her for us.  What does

28   she look like?

9121

1       A.  She has dark, almost black hair.  Sort of —

2   sort of brown eyes.  I think some — kind of like

3   a — a little bit of a darker complexion.

4       Q.  Slim woman?  Heavy woman?

5       A.  Slim woman.

6       Q.  Now, do you remember her son Jordie?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  On how many occasions did you meet Jordie?

9       A.  Once.

10       Q.  Only one time?

11       A.  That’s all I can remember, yes.

12       Q.  And did you spend the night with Jordie?

13       A.  Yeah, we all stayed in Michael’s room.

14       Q.  You say “we all stayed.”  Were there other

15   people there besides Jordie?

16       A.  Yeah, Macaulay Culkin was there and his

17   brother Kieran Culkin.

18       Q.  Now, Macaulay Culkin has sisters, does he

19   not?

20       A.  I don’t know.

21       Q.  Were there any girls that were staying with

22   you that night?

23       A.  Not that I remember.

24       Q.  Were there ever any girls, other than your

25   sister, at age seven, who actually spent the night

26   in Mr. Jackson’s room with you during the years that

27   you knew him and spent the night in his room?

28       A.  Yes.

9122

1       Q.  Who?

2       A.  There was Brandy Jackson.

3       Q.  I’m sorry?

4       A.  Brandy Jackson, who is Michael’s niece.

5       Q.  And she spent the night on how many

6   occasions with you?

7       A.  Only one that I can remember.

8       Q.  One night?

9       A.  Yeah.

10       Q.  All right.  So we’re talking about a period

11   of about five years; is that right?

12       A.  Yeah.

13       Q.  In the five years, you can remember Brandy.

14   Who else do you recall?

15       A.  As far as females?

16       Q.  Yes.

17       A.  My sister.  Brandy.  That’s all I remember.

18       Q.  Now, your sister actually never went back

19   into that room and spent the night with you after

20   that first week when you were seven; is that

21   correct?

22       A.  Yeah, not that I can remember.

23       Q.  Is it an accurate statement to say that the

24   boys who stayed there for long periods of time

25   started getting pretty rowdy?

26       A.  Rowdy?

27       Q.  Yeah.

28       A.  What do you mean?

9123

1       Q.  Well, goof off, and simply kids who weren’t

2   under a lot of supervision?

3       A.  Oh, yeah.  I mean, you know, boys will be

4   boys.  We’d go around and have fun.

5       Q.  Loud and boisterous?

6       A.  Yes.

7       Q.  And on occasions break things?

8       A.  Accidentally, yeah.

9       Q.  And be somewhat disobedient?

10       A.  Some of them maybe.

11       Q.  Were there ever occasions where you and Mr.

12   Jackson were throwing stones at the lion in the zoo?

13       A.  Stones at the lion.  Yeah, I think so.

14       Q.  That did happen, didn’t it?

15       A.  Yeah.

16       Q.  Mr. Jackson was throwing stones at the lion

17   in your presence; is that right?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  Was he encouraging you to do the same thing?

20       A.  Yeah.  Little pebbles, but, yeah.

21       Q.  They weren’t exactly pebbles.  They were

22   good-sized stones, weren’t they?

23       A.  No, I remember small stones.

24       Q.  It was designed to irritate the lion, wasn’t

25   it?

26       A.  Yeah, we were trying get him to make some

27   noise.

28       Q.  Because it was entertaining to Mr. Jackson

9124

1   and to you?

2       A.  Yeah.

3       Q.  How old were you at the time?

4       A.  I think I would have been seven or eight.

5       Q.  Were there any other kids around at that

6   time?

7       A.  No.  Maybe my sister.

8       Q.  Now, you said that you spent one night that

9   you can recall with Jordie Chandler.  Do you know

10   Brett Barnes?

11       A.  Yes.

12       Q.  Did you ever spend a night with Brett

13   Barnes?

14       A.  No.

15       Q.  Did you ever meet Brett Barnes?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  How old were you when you met Brett Barnes?

18       A.  I think I would have been nine.  It was soon

19   after we moved to America.

20       Q.  On that occasion when you spent the night

21   with Jordie Chandler, Macaulay, and his brother, was

22   Brett Barnes there as well?

23       A.  No.

24       Q.  Do you know if Brett Barnes spent nights

25   with Michael Jackson?

26       A.  I don’t know.

27       Q.  Do you know if they ever shared a bed?

28       A.  I don’t know.

9125

1       Q.  Did Michael Jackson ever talk to you about

2   the propriety of sleeping with him?

3       A.  Could you rephrase that?

4       Q.  Did Michael Jackson ever have a conversation

5   with you wherein the subject of the conversation was

6   that it was okay for you to sleep with a

7   30-something-year-old man?

8       A.  Yeah.

9       Q.  He did?

10       A.  We would both talk about it.

11       Q.  Really.  From what age?  When did that first

12   conversation happen?

13       A.  I don’t remember.

14       Q.  Were you seven?

15       A.  I don’t remember.

16       Q.  Was it the first week that you were there?

17       A.  No.

18       Q.  Do you think it was soon after you moved to

19   the United States?

20       A.  I really don’t remember.

21       Q.  What was the nature of that conversation?

22       A.  I don’t remember an exact conversation.  I’m

23   sure it’s just something, you know, we talked about

24   at some point; that — you know, that it’s fine.

25       Q.  Did Mr. Jackson ever tell you that you were

26   family to him?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Did he tell you that often?

9126

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  Did he tell you that he would take care of

3   you?

4       A.  No.

5       Q.  Did he tell you he would protect you?

6       A.  Yes.

7       Q.  All right.  Did he ever tell your mother in

8   your presence that you were family?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  And that your mother could trust him?

11       A.  Yes.

12       Q.  In fact, the word “trust” came up in many

13   conversations with Michael Jackson, did it not?

14       A.  Yeah, we’d talk about trust in, you know,

15   other people, and that sort of thing.

16       Q.  But he encouraged you particularly to trust

17   in him, did he not?

18       A.  No, there was no particular emphasis on it.

19       Q.  How much time did you spend with Macaulay

20   Culkin?

21       A.  Um, there was that — the trip that we spoke

22   of, that I think was a couple of days.  I think I

23   was with him one other time at the Century City

24   apartment, which was a night.  I think that was

25   about it.

26       Q.  Now, the trip you described, that trip was

27   where now?

28       A.  Which trip?

9127

1       Q.  Maybe I misheard you.  Did you say “the trip

2   I just spoke of”?

3       A.  Oh, the one I spoke of.  That was the one

4   where I said where Jordie Chandler was there at

5   Neverland.

6       Q.  That was Neverland?

7       A.  Yeah.

8       Q.  He was there and you were there for what

9   period of time together?  Just one night?

10       A.  No, it was a couple days.

11       Q.  Did it go over more than one night?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  On both of those nights, did both of you

14   spend that time in Mr. Jackson’s room?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  Now, did either one of you actually spend

17   the night in Mr. Jackson’s bed with Mr. Jackson?

18       A.  No.  I think — from I can remember — I can

19   only remember one night in particular, and I

20   remember myself and Kieran Culkin, I think, slept on

21   Michael’s bed, and Michael slept on a cot, or

22   something, on the side of us, and I don’t know,

23   Macaulay fell asleep on a couch or something.

24       Q.  I’m sorry.

25       A.  Go ahead, no.

26       Q.  The Century City apartment, I believe you

27   said you spent some time there with Macaulay Culkin

28   as well?

9128

1       A.  Yeah.  I think it was one night there, yeah.

2       Q.  Was his brother there?

3       A.  I don’t remember for sure.  I don’t remember

4   him being there.

5       Q.  Mr. Jackson would periodically kiss you,

6   would he not?

7       A.  No.

8       Q.  Periodically hug you?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Touch you?

11       A.  Hug me.  That would be —

12       Q.  Put his hands through your hair?

13       A.  No.

14       Q.  Touch you about the head and the face?

15       A.  Yeah.

16       Q.  Did he ever kiss you on the cheek?

17       A.  Yeah.

18       Q.  Did he ever kiss you on the lips?

19       A.  No.

20       Q.  Do you remember any other children being

21   there about that time?

22       A.  Which time?

23       Q.  From the time that you were seven until the

24   time you stopped sleeping there at age 13.

25       A.  Being at the ranch?

26       Q.  Yes.

27       A.  Other than we spoke of, no.

28       Q.  Did you know Blanca Francia’s son?

9129

1       A.  No.  I knew of him.  But I don’t think I

2   ever met him.

3       Q.  What was his name?

4       A.  I don’t know.

5       Q.  Does “Jason” sound familiar?

6       A.  Yes, but I think because I’ve heard it

7   recently.  But, yeah.

8       Q.  Now, were there ever occasions after you

9   were 14 years old that you came and stayed at

10   Neverland Ranch and Michael Jackson was, in fact,

11   there?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  And you did not stay with him in his room?

14       A.  The only time I can remember was a time I

15   went up there with a few family members and friends,

16   and we didn’t know he was going to be there.  And,

17   you know, we sort of ran into him and hung out a

18   bit, and, no, I didn’t sleep in his room.

19       Q.  Did you ever talk to Michael Jackson about

20   the fact that at some age it was too late for you to

21   be sleeping with him?

22       A.  No.

23       Q.  Did you ever have a conversation with him

24   about whether or not you should continue to sleep in

25   his bed?

26       A.  No.

27       Q.  Remember the last time you slept in his bed?

28       A.  The last — I think it might have been when

9130

1   I was about 14.  It was at a Sheraton Hotel in Los

2   Angeles.

3       Q.  And how did you happen to be there with him?

4       A.  I stayed with him for I think it was just

5   one night.

6       Q.  Did you call or did he call you?

7       A.  I don’t remember.

8       Q.  Was your mother there?

9       A.  No.

10       Q.  Do you remember how you got there?

11       A.  No, I don’t.

12       Q.  Were there occasions that Mr. Jackson would

13   summon you to Neverland Ranch?

14       A.  Summon me?

15       Q.  Yes.  Call you up and ask you to come and be

16   there; invite you to Neverland Ranch?

17       A.  Invite us, yeah.

18       Q.  All right.  Without your mother?

19       A.  Like ask if I could come without my mother,

20   do you mean?

21       Q.  Or just ask you to come, and you came by

22   yourself.

23       A.  The only time I remember being there —

24   sorry.  The only time I remember being there was

25   that — that trip that we spoke of by myself with

26   Jordie Chandler and Macaulay.

27       Q.  On the occasions that you stayed in bed with

28   Mr. Jackson, would you ever cuddle in bed?

9131

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  Would you lie next to one another?

3       A.  No.

4       Q.  Would you touch?

5       A.  No.

6       Q.  Would you consider it to have been

7   inappropriate to have cuddled in bed?

8       A.  Sorry?

9       Q.  Would you have considered it to be

10   inappropriate to have cuddled in bed?

11       A.  No.

12           MR. ZONEN:  I have no further questions.

13

14                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

15   BY MR. MESEREAU:

16       Q.  Mr. Robson, the prosecutor for the

17   government asked you about your dressing like

18   Michael Jackson.

19       A.  Uh-huh.

20       Q.  And I believe you said something about you

21   dressed like him before you met him.

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  Would you please explain that?

24       A.  Well, you know, I became a fan of Michael

25   Jackson when I was two years old, when I saw the

26   making of “Thriller,” and started dancing like him

27   when I was, you know, three or four.  So I think

28   when I was about five, I started, because I was

9132

1   imitating him.  I got costumes made and that sort of

2   thing.  So I would dress like him from that point,

3   before I met him.

4       Q.  Did Mr. Jackson ever encourage you to dress

5   like him?

6       A.  No.

7       Q.  Did you dress like him because you were a

8   fan and friend of his?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Now, the prosecutor talked about your

11   throwing pebbles at a lion.

12       A.  Uh-huh.

13       Q.  Would you please explain what you were

14   describing.

15       A.  Well, there’s a lion that was in a cage.

16   And, you know, went to see the lion roar, and it’s

17   pretty much just sitting there, you know, not doing

18   anything.  So we picked up a couple little stones

19   and threw them at the cage, you know.

20       Q.  And the prosecutor used the word “stones,”

21   and you said “pebbles.”  How big were these things?

22       A.  Little, you know — I don’t know,

23   quarter-inch sort of things.

24       Q.  Were you trying to hurt the lion?

25       A.  No.

26       Q.  To your knowledge, was Mr. Jackson trying to

27   hurt the lion?

28       A.  No.

9133

1       Q.  Okay.  The prosecutor asked you questions

2   about whether or not you were considered family.

3   Did you consider yourself to be part of Mr.

4   Jackson’s family?

5       A.  Yeah, I mean, in a friendship sort of way.

6   Because we were that close.  It was like family.

7       Q.  And did you use the word “family” once in a

8   while —

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  — when you spoke to him?

11       A.  Yes.

12       Q.  Did you hear your mother or sister using the

13   word “family”?

14       A.  Yes.

15       Q.  Did you think anything was strange about

16   that?

17       A.  No.

18       Q.  The prosecutor for the government asked

19   about Mr. Jackson giving you a kiss on the cheek.

20       A.  Uh-huh.

21       Q.  And you said that happened sometimes?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  Did you think there was anything

24   inappropriate about that?

25       A.  No.

26       Q.  Did you do it in front of your mom?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Did you do it in front of your sister?

9134

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  Did your mother kiss him on the cheek?

3       A.  Yes.

4       Q.  Did your sister kiss him on the cheek?

5       A.  Yes.

6       Q.  Did you kiss Mr. Jackson on the cheek?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  Did your mother used to hug Mr. Jackson?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Did Mr. Jackson used to hug your mother?

11           MR. ZONEN:  I’ll object as irrelevant what

12   happened with his mother.

13           THE COURT:  Overruled.  Go ahead.

14       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Did Mr. Jackson used to

15   hug your mother?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  Did your sister used to hug Mr. Jackson?

18           MR. ZONEN:  I’ll object as leading as well.

19           THE COURT:  Overruled.

20       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Did your sister used to

21   hug Mr. Jackson?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  And would you see Mr. Jackson hug your

24   sister?

25       A.  Yes.

26       Q.  Did you ever think there was anything

27   inappropriate about Mr. Jackson hugging any member

28   of your family?

9135

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  Did you ever think it was inappropriate to

3   see any member of your family hug Mr. Jackson?

4       A.  No.

5       Q.  Now, you said your sister would sometimes

6   stay in Mr. Jackson’s room, correct?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  And how often do you recall that happening?

9       A.  I remember it just within that first trip we

10   were there.  So it was — it was, you know, three or

11   four nights or something like that.

12       Q.  And you mentioned Brandy.  Is that who you

13   mentioned?

14       A.  Yes.

15       Q.  Who was Brandy again?

16       A.  She was Michael Jackson’s niece.

17       Q.  You saw Brandy staying in his room?

18       A.  Yeah.

19       Q.  What’s the largest number of kids you ever

20   saw stay in Mr. Jackson’s room, if you remember?

21       A.  Yeah, probably four to five.

22       Q.  And what do you recall the children doing in

23   his room?

24       A.  Well, before we went to sleep, same sort of

25   things.  We’d play video games, watch movies.  Have

26   pillow fights.  You know, yeah.

27       Q.  Did you ever see anything of a sexual nature

28   between Mr. Jackson and any of those children?

9136

1       A.  Never.

2       Q.  Now, the prosecutor mentioned Macaulay

3   Culkin.  Did you get to know Macaulay Culkin at

4   Neverland?

5       A.  Yeah.  I mean, we hung out a little bit,

6   yes.

7       Q.  Was that where you first met him?

8       A.  I think I might have met him on a — on a

9   set of a commercial or one of his videos or — or,

10   no, I think I met him on “Black or White” the first

11   time, the music video.

12       Q.  Did you stay in contact with Mr. Culkin?

13       A.  No.

14       Q.  Is he someone you communicate with on a

15   regular basis?

16       A.  No.

17       Q.  Okay.  Now, would you see Mr. Culkin’s

18   family at Neverland?

19       A.  Other than his brother Kieran, I don’t

20   remember.

21       Q.  And approximately how old was his brother,

22   do you think?

23       A.  At that time, he would have been, I guess,

24   nine or ten, or something like that.

25       Q.  Have you seen Mr. Jackson hug other children

26   at Neverland?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Have you seen other children hug Mr. Jackson

9137

1   at Neverland?

2       A.  Yes.

3       Q.  Have you ever thought any of this was

4   inappropriate?

5       A.  No.

6       Q.  Have you seen Mr. Jackson kiss children at

7   Neverland?

8       A.  On the cheek, yes.  Or on the head, or on

9   the top of the head, something like that.

10       Q.  Ever seen kids kiss Mr. Jackson?

11       A.  Yes.

12       Q.  Any of that ever look inappropriate to you?

13       A.  No.

14       Q.  Have you seen lots of children visit

15   Neverland on occasion?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  And what do you mean?

18       A.  I think we were there once when he had one

19   of his gatherings, like a Heal the World Foundation

20   thing where he had a bunch of kids come up there

21   and — you know, and have the day there.

22       Q.  And how many kids are you talking about, do

23   you think?

24       A.  Probably about 100 or 50.  75 to 100,

25   something like that.

26       Q.  Were there adults with those children?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  And you said, “Heal the World.”  What did

9138

1   that mean to you?

2           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as exceeding

3   the scope of the direct examination, and irrelevant,

4   and beyond the scope of his knowledge.

5           THE COURT:  Overruled.

6           You may answer.

7           THE WITNESS:  Could you repeat the question?

8       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Yeah.  What was “Heal the

9   World,” as far as you remember?

10       A.  As far as I knew, it was a foundation or a

11   charity that Michael had created that, you know,

12   raised money for kids with illnesses.  I don’t know

13   exactly what kind, but —

14       Q.  Did you interact with any of these kids that

15   visited that day?

16       A.  I may have, yeah, I mean, waved at them or

17   met a couple of them or something like that.

18       Q.  Did you see Mr. Jackson hugging other

19   children?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  Did you see them hugging him?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  Did you see Mr. Jackson kiss children?

24       A.  Yeah.

25       Q.  Have you seen them kiss him?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  Ever seen anything inappropriate?

28       A.  No.

9139

1       Q.  Did you see Mr. Jackson hug adults who were

2   with those children?

3       A.  Yes.

4       Q.  Did you see adults hug Mr. Jackson who were

5   with those children?

6       A.  Yes.

7       Q.  Ever think any of that was inappropriate?

8       A.  No.

9       Q.  Now, the prosecutor for the government asked

10   you questions about whether he touched your hair.

11       A.  Uh-huh.

12       Q.  Do you recall Mr. Jackson ever touching your

13   hair?

14       A.  I can’t recall an exact thing, but it seems

15   like something he might have done at some point.

16       Q.  Do you ever recall Mr. Jackson doing

17   anything inappropriate with your hair?

18       A.  No.

19       Q.  Ever seen Mr. Jackson touch another child on

20   the head?

21       A.  Yes.

22       Q.  Have you seen that many times?

23       A.  Many times.

24       Q.  Did it ever seem like anything inappropriate

25   was going on when you saw that?

26       A.  No.

27       Q.  The prosecutor asked about disobedience at

28   Neverland, and you said you did see kids act up

9140

1   sometimes?

2       A.  Yeah, I mean, act up as far as kids go.  I

3   mean, you know, driving golf carts around and

4   throwing water balloons at each other, and things

5   that, I guess, I don’t know, maybe parents would get

6   upset about at some point, but that was the extent

7   of it.

8       Q.  And did you engage in some of that, too?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Did you ever see Michael Jackson in a water

11   balloon fight with kids?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  Ever see kids throw water balloons at

14   Michael?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  Ever see Michael throw water balloons at

17   kids?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  Did you ever see Michael in golf carts with

20   kids?

21       A.  Yes.

22       Q.  When you used to play at Neverland during

23   the day, would Michael often be with you?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  And what would Michael do with you?

26       A.  We’d go on rides together, you know, where

27   we’d drive around in the golf cart together, look at

28   animals together, watch movies together.

9141

1       Q.  Did you see Mr. Jackson act in a similar way

2   with other children?

3       A.  Yes.

4       Q.  Ever see anything inappropriate go on when

5   he was doing any of these things?

6       A.  No.

7       Q.  Now, how often do you recall your mother

8   going to Neverland with you?

9       A.  It’s been every time except for that one

10   time that I spoke of when I was there with Jordie

11   Chandler and Macaulay and I.

12       Q.  What do you recall seeing your mother do at

13   Neverland?

14       A.  A lot of the same things with us.

15       Q.  Would she sometimes be with Mr. Jackson when

16   all the kids were playing?

17       A.  Oh, yes.  She was playing along with us.

18       Q.  Now, you mentioned visiting an apartment in

19   Century City with Mr. Jackson, right?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  And what do you recall doing in the

22   apartment with Mr. Jackson?

23       A.  Same sort of things.  He had arcade games

24   there.  You know, candy.  We’d eat, we’d watch, you

25   know, T.V. shows, Stooges.  Hang around, play games,

26   you know.

27       Q.  Did you ever see Mr. Jackson do anything

28   inappropriate with any child at that apartment?

9142

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  Where else have you been with Mr. Jackson?

3       A.  Like I said, we covered Las Vegas.  Westwood

4   apartment, Century City apartment.  Sheraton Hotel.

5   He came and stayed at my place once.

6       Q.  Where was that?

7       A.  That was in Hollywood.  It was — my mother

8   and I had a condo, and my sister.

9       Q.  Did you see Mr. Jackson do anything

10   inappropriate at any of these locations?

11       A.  No.

12       Q.  Ever seen Mr. Jackson touch any child in a

13   sexual way at any of these locations?

14       A.  Never.

15       Q.  Did Mr. Jackson ever touch you

16   inappropriately in any of these locations?

17       A.  No.

18       Q.  Now, have you been following media reporting

19   in this case?

20       A.  Yeah.  On and off.

21       Q.  You’re aware of allegations that were made

22   that Mr. Jackson —

23           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as leading

24   and exceeding the scope of the direct — cross.

25           THE COURT:  I don’t know what the question is

26   yet.

27       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Okay.  You’ve been

28   following these reports that somehow Mr. Jackson was

9143

1   seen inappropriately touching you?

2       A.  Yes.

3       Q.  What do you think of them?

4       A.  I think it’s —

5           MR. ZONEN:  I’ll object.

6           I’ll withdraw the objection.

7           THE WITNESS:  I think it’s ridiculous.

8           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

9

10                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION

11   BY MR. ZONEN:

12       Q.  When Mr. Jackson stayed with you at your

13   Hollywood apartment, how old were you?

14       A.  I would say 11 or 12.

15       Q.  Did he share your bed with you at that time?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  All right.  There was one bed that you had

18   in your room; is that correct?

19       A.  No, it was actually — it was a — like a

20   futon that was our couch down in the living room.

21       Q.  So both of you stayed on the couch in the

22   living room?

23       A.  Yes.

24       Q.  Was that couch your normal residence?  Was

25   that where you normally slept?

26       A.  I think that’s where I was sleeping at that

27   point, yeah.

28       Q.  You think that’s where you were sleeping?

9144

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  You slept in other rooms at different times?

3       A.  Yeah.

4       Q.  Now, all those places that you mentioned are

5   all places that you mentioned, a series of places,

6   you had been with Michael Jackson.  On all of those

7   occasions you slept in the same bed with him; is

8   that correct?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Do you think that’s appropriate, for a

11   35-year-old man to be sleeping with an

12   eight-year-old boy?

13       A.  I don’t see any problem with it.

14       Q.  Suppose the 35-year-old man has an obsession

15   for sexually explicit material.  Would that change

16   your view?

17           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; 352.

18           MR. ZONEN:  It’s in evidence.

19           MR. MESEREAU:  Calls for speculation;

20   assumes facts not in evidence.

21           THE COURT:  I’m going to sustain the

22   objection because of the use of the term

23   “obsession.”

24       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  If you knew that the person,

25   the 35-year-old man who was sleeping with an

26   eight-year-old boy, possessed a great quantity of

27   sexually explicit material, would that cause you

28   concern about that person’s motivations while he was

9145

1   in bed with the boy?

2       A.  Yes.

3           MR. ZONEN:  No further questions.

4

5                FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

6   BY MR. MESEREAU:

7       Q.  If you had known Michael Jackson, as a grown

8   man, was reading Playboy, Hustler, Penthouse,

9   magazines like that showing naked women, would that

10   have concerned you?

11       A.  No.  That’s what I was going to say

12   afterward.  Depends on what kind of material, what

13   kind of pornographic material you were talking

14   about.

15       Q.  Would that have concerned you?

16       A.  No.

17           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

18           MR. ZONEN:  May I approach the witness?

19           THE COURT:  Yes.

20

21                 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

22   BY MR. ZONEN:

23       Q.  I’d like to show you a couple exhibits, 841

24   and 842, that have been shown previously in this

25   court to this jury.

26           Let’s start with one titled “Boys Will Be

27   Boys.”  I’d like you to take a look at a few of the

28   pages.  Just go ahead and start turning pages,

9146

1   please.

2           Stop there for a moment.

3           Would you describe the picture on the right

4   side?

5       A.  There’s a young boy with his legs open and

6   he’s naked.

7       Q.  All right.  The picture prominently displays

8   his genitalia, does it not?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  That boy looks, to you, to be approximately

11   how old?

12       A.  Maybe 11 or 12.

13       Q.  That’s how old you were when you were

14   sleeping with Michael Jackson; is that right?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  Go ahead and flip a couple of more pages, if

17   you would.

18           You can stop right there, the next page.

19   What’s the picture on the left show?

20       A.  Just a young boy who’s naked standing on a

21   rock.

22       Q.  His genitalia is prominently displayed in

23   that picture; is that correct?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  Appears that that child is about the same as

26   the other one?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Flip a couple more pages.  Please keep

9147

1   going.

2           Okay.  Stop right there.

3           What’s in that two pages, series of two

4   pages?

5       A.  There’s a boy, about the same age, 11 or 12,

6   who’s naked.

7       Q.  All right.  And in those pictures his

8   genitalia is prominently displayed as well; is that

9   correct?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  In fact, if you’ll take just a second and

12   strum through the balance of that book — you can do

13   it fairly rapidly, if you would.  You don’t have to

14   go page by page, but as you wish.

15           Is it true, Mr. Robson, that all of the

16   pictures in that book are of boys about the same

17   age?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  10, 11, 12 years old?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  And that many of the photographs, if not

22   most of the photographs, depicted in that book are

23   of boys nude; is that correct?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  And in fact, in most of those pictures, the

26   genitalia is prominently displayed; is that right?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Would you be concerned with a person who

9148

1   possesses a book like that?

2       A.  No.

3       Q.  Would you be concerned about having your

4   12-year-old child in bed with a person who possesses

5   a book like that?

6       A.  No.

7       Q.  You would have no such concern?

8       A.  No.  It’s — to me, it doesn’t — it’s not a

9   pornographic book.  It’s sort of, you know — I

10   don’t know, just a book.

11       Q.  I’d like — and I’d like to show you

12   Exhibit 596, please.  Take a moment and look at that

13   book.

14           Let’s stop there for a moment.

15           That’s the first, in fact, picture in that

16   book; is that correct?

17       A.  I didn’t notice, no.

18           Do you want me to go to the first picture?

19       Q.  You know, no, you can pick any picture,

20   actually.  Just go ahead and open the book at

21   random.

22           Right there.

23       A.  Oh, sorry.

24       Q.  Is it a fact, as you look through that book,

25   what is depicted in that book throughout that book

26   are a series of photographs of two men engaged in

27   sex acts with one another?

28       A.  Yes.

9149

1       Q.  And in fact, the sex acts are all acts of

2   either masturbation, oral sex or sodomy; is that

3   right?

4       A.  From what I saw, yes.

5       Q.  And sodomy, as you understand, is an act of

6   anal sex; is that correct?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  Would you be concerned about a person who

9   possesses that book crawling into bed with a

10   ten-year-old boy?

11       A.  Yes, I guess so.

12           MR. ZONEN:  No further questions.

13           MR. MESEREAU:  May I approach, Your Honor?

14           THE COURT:  Yes.

15

16                FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

17   BY MR. MESEREAU:

18       Q.  Mr. Robson, I want to show you Exhibit

19   No. 841.  It says, “Boys Will Be Boys.”  Do you see

20   this?

21       A.  Yes.

22       Q.  Okay.  Now, I’d like you to read the

23   inscription on that book, okay?  Read it out loud,

24   if you would.

25       A.  Okay.  “Look at the true spirit of happiness

26   and joy in these boys’ faces.  This is the spirit of

27   boyhood, a life I never had and will always dream

28   of.  This is the life I want for my children.  MJ.”

9150

1       Q.  Having read that inscription and having

2   looked at this book, would you have any concern

3   being in bed with Michael Jackson if you knew this

4   book was found in his home?

5       A.  No.

6       Q.  Let me show you Exhibit No. 842.  Please

7   read out loud the inscription on that book.

8       A.  Is that, “To Michael”?  Yeah.  “To Michael,

9   from your fan.  Kiss, kiss, kiss, hug, hug, hug.

10   Rhonda.  1983.”

11       Q.  You’ve looked through that book – okay? –

12   and it says, “The Boy; A photographic Essay,” right?

13       A.  I didn’t look through that book.

14       Q.  Okay.  Why don’t you look through this book

15   the prosecutor showed you, and please say whether or

16   not you would have a problem being in the same

17   bedroom with Michael Jackson based upon what you see

18   in that book and the inscription.

19       A.  No.

20       Q.  Okay.  Now, let me show you — let me show

21   you Exhibit No. 596 that the prosecutor showed you.

22   Just read the cover, if you would.

23       A.  “Man, A Sexual Study of Man.  Illustrated

24   With Photographs and Art Prints.”

25       Q.  Okay.  Now, you’ve seen those photographs,

26   and you’ve said you were somewhat disturbed by the

27   pictures, right?

28       A.  Well, I wasn’t disturbed by the pictures.

9151

1       Q.  Well, if you — if you read this book, and

2   it appeared to be a book dealing with male sexuality

3   in all different areas, and you knew that this book

4   existed with hundreds of editions of Hustler,

5   Playboy, Penthouse —

6           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as leading.

7       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  — would that bother you?

8           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as leading.

9           THE COURT:  Overruled.

10           You may answer.

11           THE WITNESS:  Can you repeat it?

12       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Sure.

13           Let’s assume that you learned that Michael

14   Jackson had ten years’ worth of Hustler, Playboy,

15   Penthouse – okay? – magazines, heterosexual-type

16   magazines, and let’s assume that — have you ever

17   seen Mr. Jackson’s library?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  How many books do you think are in there?

20       A.  Thousands.

21       Q.  And let’s suppose in the middle of all those

22   books you found, “A Sexual Study of Man, Illustrated

23   With Photographs and Art Prints,” okay?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  Putting all this together, would being in

26   bed with Mr. Jackson concern you?

27       A.  No.

28           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

9152

1                    FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

2   BY MR. ZONEN:

3       Q.  Of course nobody’s told you where this book

4   comes from, did they?

5       A.  No.

6           MR. SNEDDON:  Ron?

7           THE COURT:  It’s time for the break.

8           MR. ZONEN:  It’s not quarter to.

9           THE COURT:  My bailiff told me.

10           (Recess taken.)

11           MR. MESEREAU:  Your Honor?

12           MR. ZONEN:  Thank you.

13           MR. MESEREAU:  I’m going to object that the

14   questions have become cumulative and there’s no

15   foundation for it to go any further.

16           BAILIFF CORTEZ:  Your microphone is off,

17   sir.

18           MR. MESEREAU:  It’s beyond the scope.  And

19   this is not a character witness.

20           MR. ZONEN:  I don’t recall which question

21   he’s referring to.

22           THE COURT:  I’m looking for it myself.

23           I don’t have a question.

24           THE REPORTER:  Would you like me to read the

25   last question, Judge?

26           MR. ZONEN:  I’m prepared to start with a new

27   question.

28           THE COURT:  All right.

9153

1       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Mr. Robson, the three books

2   that are in front of you that you’ve already taken a

3   look at, I’d like to go back over the inscription

4   that — 842 is a book, and you were asked to read

5   that inscription out loud.

6           Take a look at that inscription again, would

7   you, please?

8       A.  Do you want me to read it again?

9       Q.  No, you don’t need to read it again.

10           Go to the last word, which is the name.

11   What is the name on that?

12       A.  Rhonda.

13       Q.  Notice anything unusual about the name?

14       A.  No.

15       Q.  Do you notice it’s written with quotations

16   on both sides of it?

17       A.  Yes.

18       Q.  Doesn’t that usually mean that that’s not

19   the name when somebody writes it in quotation marks?

20       A.  Not that I know of.

21       Q.  Have you ever written your name in quotation

22   marks?

23       A.  No.

24       Q.  That’s actually from somebody who’s not

25   named Rhonda, right?

26           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; calls for

27   speculation.

28           THE COURT:  Sustained.

9154

1       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  The three books I’ve given

2   you so far to take a look at, they all feature

3   either boys or adult men, predominantly nude, and

4   the one on adult men is engaged in sex acts; is that

5   correct?

6           MR. MESEREAU:  I’m going to object; asked

7   and answered.  This is cumulative.

8           THE COURT:  Overruled.

9       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to show you three

10   additional books now, if I could.  Let’s start with

11   Exhibit 578, if you’ll take a look at that one,

12   please.

13           MR. MESEREAU:  Same objection.  Cumulative;

14   it’s not character; it’s beyond the scope.

15           THE COURT:  Overruled.

16       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  I’ll start with the first

17   picture.  What do you see right there?

18       A.  I see in the center of the picture, it’s a

19   drawing.  And there’s a naked man with his genitalia

20   exposed, and there’s kangaroos on either side.

21       Q.  Okay.  Go ahead and proceed.

22           You can keep going.  Just keep going through

23   it.

24           You can stop.

25           What you’ve seen so far are all pictures of

26   naked men; is that right?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  And pictures with their genitalia

9155

1   prominently displayed; is that correct?

2       A.  Yes.

3       Q.  Some of these are bondage pictures, are they

4   not?

5           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; leading.

6           MR. ZONEN:  It’s cross-examination, Your

7   Honor.

8           MR. MESEREAU:  Assumes facts not in

9   evidence.

10           THE COURT:  Overruled.

11       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Is that correct?  Like that

12   picture right there?

13       A.  Yes.

14       Q.  Would you consider this to be homoerotic

15   material?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  Exhibit No. 590-B, take a look at that,

18   please.  Tell us the title.

19       A.  “Before the Hand of Man.”

20       Q.  Go ahead and take a look at the content of

21   that book.

22           That’s enough.

23           Pictures of naked young men; is that

24   correct?

25       A.  Yes.

26       Q.  Would you consider that to be homoerotic

27   material?

28       A.  No.

9156

1       Q.  Why not?

2       A.  I look at this more as sort of — it’s about

3   the photography and it’s more of an art book, to me.

4       Q.  Do you think it’s the background setting

5   that makes it unique?

6       A.  Unique?

7       Q.  Well, they’re all naked men in it; is that

8   right?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Look at No. 599, if you would.

11           You can stop.

12           Those are all pictures of boys and men, all

13   nude; is that correct?

14       A.  I didn’t see any boys.  I saw men.

15       Q.  How old do you think is the youngest person

16   you’ve seen in this book so far?

17       A.  Maybe 19.  18, 19.

18       Q.  Teenaged?

19       A.  Yeah.

20       Q.  Okay.  They’re all about that age or a

21   little bit older; is that right?

22       A.  Yeah.

23       Q.  Do you think this person is 19?

24       A.  18, 19, yeah.

25       Q.  Okay.  And in fact, in each one of them,

26   genitalia is prominently displayed; is that correct?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Take a look at this book, please, No. 590-A.

9157

1           You can stop here.

2           What are you taking a look at?  Particularly

3   the page you’re focused on at the moment, what do

4   you see?

5       A.  There’s two naked men and it looks like

6   they’re about to kiss each another.

7       Q.  In this book, in fact, each of the pictures

8   depict two naked men; is that right?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  And in each instance, both of them are doing

11   something with one another of a sexual nature; is

12   that right?

13       A.  No.

14       Q.  They’re hugging, they’re touching, they’re

15   caressing?

16       A.  They’re posing.

17       Q.  They’re posing.  And they’re all naked?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  Would you consider this to be homoerotic

20   art?

21       A.  Mind if I look a little more?

22       Q.  Go ahead.

23       A.  Yeah, it’s — I don’t think it’s so erotic.

24   It seems more loving in a way, like not so much

25   about sex.

26       Q.  Well, how about the one you just turned to?

27   Where is his hand?

28       A.  Down his pants.

9158

1       Q.  Okay.  You can go ahead and close that one

2   right now.

3           Mr. Robson, are you concerned about a man

4   possessing these seven books being in bed with a

5   12-year-old boy?

6       A.  If it was a man I didn’t know, maybe.  But

7   not Michael.

8       Q.  Is that because you view Mr. Jackson as

9   being, for the most part, asexual?

10       A.  No.

11       Q.  Because you believe that he doesn’t really

12   have a sexual interest?

13       A.  I believe that he has a sexual interest in

14   women.

15       Q.  Did you know that he possessed these

16   magazines?

17           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection, Your Honor, he

18   didn’t let the witness complete his answer.

19           THE COURT:  Sustained.

20           MR. MESEREAU:  Could the witness complete

21   his answer, Your Honor?

22           THE COURT:  Yes.

23           THE WITNESS:  I believe that he has a sexual

24   interest in women.

25       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  In women?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  These books don’t suggest otherwise?

28       A.  Not necessarily.

9159

1       Q.  All right.  Let’s go to some other side of

2   the counter.

3           Exhibit No. 575, have you ever seen this

4   magazine before?

5       A.  No.

6       Q.  Not that specific one.  A magazine of that

7   nature?

8       A.  Of that nature, yes.

9       Q.  Okay.  And go ahead and turn through it.

10           You can stop there.  You don’t need to go

11   too much further.

12           This magazine depicts naked women, or a

13   woman in this case, inserting things inside of her;

14   is that right?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  You would consider this to be very

17   graphic —

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  — in terms of sexually explicit material?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  Exhibit No. 520, tell us the title of that.

22       A.  “Hard Rock Affair.”

23       Q.  Okay.  Go ahead and turn through a few

24   pages.

25           You don’t have to turn any further.

26           That magazine depicts graphic sexual

27   pictures of a man and a woman engaged in acts of

28   intercourse and oral sex; is that right?

9160

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  You would consider this to be pretty much as

3   hard-core as sexually graphic material goes; is that

4   right?

5           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  Misstates the

6   evidence; 352.

7           MR. ZONEN:  I asked him what he considered.

8           THE COURT:  Overruled.

9           You may answer.

10           THE WITNESS:  That’s as hard-core as it goes,

11   is that what you asked?

12       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Yes.

13       A.  No, not as hard-core as it goes.

14       Q.  What could be more than that?

15       A.  I’ve seen crazy things, crazy bondage

16   things, all sorts of stuff.

17       Q.  You saw the bondage in the last publication;

18   is that right?

19       A.  Yeah, but they weren’t really doing

20   anything.

21       Q.  All right.  You would consider bondage to be

22   at the height?

23       A.  Yeah.  When it gets into, you know, really

24   unusual stuff.

25       Q.  What’s the title of this one?  The magazine

26   that we have here is 522.

27       A.  “Double Dicking Caroline.”

28       Q.  Go ahead and turn a couple pages.

9161

1           Okay.  That’s fine.

2           These are all photographs of a man and a

3   woman engaged in pretty much anything a man and a

4   woman can do; is that right?

5       A.  Yes.

6       Q.  Including acts of intercourse, acts of oral

7   sex, and the picture right in front of you, acts of

8   anal sex; is that right?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  This you would consider to be fairly

11   hard-core, would you not?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  The title of this one, please?  No. 510.

14       A.  “Stiff Dick Lynn.”  Or “for Lynn,” sorry.

15       Q.  “For Lynn”?

16       A.  “Stiff Dick for Lynn.”

17       Q.  Let’s get our prepositions right.

18       A.  Get it right, yeah.

19       Q.  Go ahead and turn the page, if you would.

20       A.  I never thought I’d have a room of people

21   watching me do this.

22       Q.  That’s enough.

23           You would agree that this is a depiction of

24   a man and a woman engaged in virtually every

25   variation that a man and woman can do with one

26   another; is that right?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  Sexually.

9162

1           The collective material that you have just

2   been shown does not cause you a moment of pause when

3   you think about the prospect of this person who

4   possesses all of this crawling into bed with a

5   ten-year-old boy?

6       A.  No.

7       Q.  And you would allow a child to crawl into

8   bed with such a person?

9       A.  If I knew the person, yes.

10       Q.  If you knew them?

11       A.  Yes.

12       Q.  Your own child, you’d have no problem

13   sleeping with a 35-, 40-year-old man?

14       A.  If I knew the person well, no.

15           MR. ZONEN:  No further questions.

16

17                FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

18   BY MR. MESEREAU:

19       Q.  Mr. Robson?

20       A.  Yes.

21       Q.  That’s your fiancee right there, correct?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  You are heterosexual, correct?

24       A.  Yes.

25       Q.  You are a close friend of Michael, correct?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  By the way, did Michael Jackson ever — oh,

28   I’ll ask from there.

9163

1           When you were a young child, did Michael

2   Jackson ever show you any sexually explicit

3   material?

4       A.  No.

5       Q.  Did you ever see Michael Jackson show

6   sexually explicit material to any child?

7       A.  No.

8           MR. MESEREAU:  May I approach, Your Honor?

9           THE COURT:  Yes.

10       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Now, let me show you again

11   Exhibit No. 841.  Do you see that?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  And have you had a chance to flip through

14   that book?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  Okay.  Let me show you again Exhibit No.

17   596.  It says, “A Sexual Study of Man.”  Do you see

18   that?

19       A.  Yes.

20       Q.  Have you had a chance to flip through that

21   book?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  Okay.  And let me show you again Exhibit No.

24   842, “A boy; A Photographic Essay,” okay?  And

25   that’s the one with the inscription, “To Michael,

26   from your loving fan, Rhonda,” okay?

27       A.  Yes.

28       Q.  And have you had a chance to flip through

9164

1   that book?

2       A.  Yes.

3       Q.  In fact, you see young children with rather

4   innocent photographs of young boys, correct?

5           MR. ZONEN:  I’m going to object as leading,

6   Your Honor.

7           THE COURT:  Overruled.

8       Q.  BY MR. MESEREAU:  Innocent photographs of

9   young boys in various situations, right?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  Okay.  You see a young boy hanging from a

12   tree, right?

13       A.  Yes.

14       Q.  You see a young boy sitting outside a door,

15   right?

16       A.  Yes.

17       Q.  See young boys on a beach, right?

18       A.  Yes.

19       Q.  Okay.  Now, let’s go to — quickly, to the

20   material the prosecutor for the government showed

21   you, okay?  He showed you some magazines with

22   heterosexual activity, correct?

23       A.  Yes.

24       Q.  Okay.  Have you seen one book that depicts

25   child pornography in that group?

26       A.  No.

27           MR. ZONEN:  I believe there was a Court

28   restriction on the use of that word, Your Honor, one

9165

1   initiated by the defense.  Unless that reservation

2   is finished.

3           MR. MESEREAU:  He’s correct.  And I made a

4   mistake using the word.  I’ll withdraw it, and I

5   apologize.

6           THE COURT:  All right.  The problem is that

7   sometimes it’s an appropriate word to use and

8   sometimes it’s not.  But the jury’s been instructed

9   on it.  And so if you want to rephrase it, that’s

10   fine.

11           MR. MESEREAU:  Okay.

12       Q.  In those books that the prosecutor for the

13   government showed you, you see books about men,

14   right?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  You see one book that says, “A Study of Male

17   Sexuality” and shows some sexual acts between men,

18   correct?

19       A.  Yes.

20       Q.  And he showed you a number of magazines

21   involving sexual activity between men and women,

22   correct?

23       A.  Yes.

24       Q.  Okay.  Has he shown you one book involving

25   children having sex?

26       A.  No.

27       Q.  Has he shown you one book where a man is

28   having sex with a child?

9166

1       A.  No.

2       Q.  The prosecutor tried to suggest that Mr.

3   Jackson is asexual.  Do you remember that question?

4       A.  Yes.

5       Q.  Do you believe he’s asexual?

6       A.  No.

7       Q.  Have you seen Mr. Jackson with women in your

8   lifetime?

9       A.  With what kind of woman?  A woman that he’s

10   in a relationship with?

11       Q.  That he’s been married to.

12       A.  Yeah, with Lisa Marie.

13       Q.  When you were at Neverland, did you ever see

14   anything that suggested pedophilia?

15       A.  No.

16       Q.  Ever see any magazine or poster that

17   suggested pedophilia?

18       A.  Never.

19           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

20

21                    FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

22   BY MR. ZONEN:

23       Q.  Mr. Robson, when did you first learn that

24   Michael Jackson possessed material of the nature

25   that’s before you right now?

26       A.  Right now I did.

27       Q.  All the years that you have known Michael —

28       A.  Actually, no one’s told me where this came

9167

1   from.

2       Q.  Assuming this comes from Michael Jackson’s

3   residence.

4       A.  Assuming it does, this is the first I know.

5       Q.  All right.  And you had never, ever known

6   that Mr. Jackson collected sexually explicit

7   material?

8       A.  No.

9       Q.  This is something new that you’re learning

10   just today; is that right?

11       A.  Yes.

12       Q.  You’re telling us that this would have no

13   effect at all on your belief that this bears on some

14   suitability for him sleeping with ten-year-old boys?

15       A.  No.

16       Q.  You knew that there were a succession of

17   ten-year-old boys that he slept with, didn’t you?

18           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  Misstates the

19   evidence; the Court ruling.

20           THE COURT:  Sustained.

21       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Did you know about other

22   children that he had slept with?

23       A.  No.

24       Q.  Never?

25       A.  No.

26       Q.  Did you know that he was sleeping with Brett

27   Barnes?

28       A.  No.

9168

1       Q.  Did you know that he was sleeping with

2   Macaulay Culkin?

3       A.  No.

4       Q.  Did you know that he was sleeping with

5   Jordie Chandler?

6       A.  No.

7           MR. ZONEN:  No further questions.

8

9                FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

10   BY MR. MESEREAU:

11       Q.  You actually saw kids sleeping in his room

12   from time to time, correct?

13       A.  Yeah.  When he was present as well, yeah.

14       Q.  And Macaulay Culkin was there as well,

15   correct?

16       A.  Yeah.

17       Q.  Never saw anything inappropriate happen,

18   right?

19       A.  No.

20       Q.  Has anything this prosecutor for the

21   government has said to you changed your opinion of

22   Michael Jackson?

23       A.  Not at all.

24       Q.  Does it change your opinion as to whether or

25   not he ever did anything inappropriate with a child?

26       A.  Not at all.

27           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

28           MR. ZONEN:  I have no questions.

9169

1           THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

2           Call your next witness.

3           MR. MESEREAU:  Your Honor, may I remove the

4   materials from the witness box?

5           THE COURT:  Yes.

6           THE BAILIFF:  Oh, I’ll get it for you.

7           THE COURT:  When you get to the witness

8   stand, please remain standing.

9           Face the clerk over here and raise your

10   right hand.

11

12                   BRETT CHRISTOPHER BARNES

13           Having been sworn, testified as follows:

14

15           THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.  State and

17   spell your name for the record.

18           THE WITNESS:  My whole name?

19           THE CLERK:  Yes, please.

20           THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It’s Brett Christopher

21   Barnes.  B-r-e-double t; C-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r;

22   B-a-r-n-e-s.

23           THE CLERK:  Thank you.

24

25                    DIRECT EXAMINATION

26   BY MR. MESEREAU:

27       Q.  Mr. Barnes, how old are you?

28       A.  I’m 23 years old.

9170

1       Q.  Where is your home?

2       A.  Melbourne, Australia.

3       Q.  And what kind of work do you do?

4       A.  Right now I’m unemployed.  I actually had to

5   quit my job to come here.

6       Q.  Okay.  And what job is that?

7       A.  I was a roulette dealer at the casino.

8       Q.  In Melbourne?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  Okay.  Do you know the fellow seated to my

11   right at counsel table?

12       A.  Absolutely.

13       Q.  Who is he?

14       A.  It’s my good friend Michael Jackson.

15       Q.  And you say your good friend.  How long have

16   you known him?

17       A.  Since I was five.

18       Q.  How did you meet him?

19       A.  I actually — I was a big — well, I was as

20   big a fan as you can be at that age, of his, and he

21   was in Melbourne for the “Bad” tour.  And so my mom

22   thought it would be a good idea for us to write a

23   letter.  My sister wrote the letter, but put it in

24   my name as if I was writing the letter.

25           And we went to meet him — well, see him at

26   the airport when he touched down.  And while we were

27   there, we gave the letter to one of his dancers, and

28   then we left the airport after it was all over.

9171

1           And I’m not sure exactly how much time

2   passed, but after a little while, he — we received

3   a phone call from him, and ever since then we’ve

4   been really good friends.

5       Q.  And is he a friend of your family?

6       A.  Absolutely.

7       Q.  Okay.  Have you ever visited Neverland

8   Ranch?

9       A.  Yes, I have.

10       Q.  When did you first visit Neverland Ranch?

11       A.  It would have been December of ’91.

12       Q.  And do you remember why you visited

13   Neverland?

14       A.  Because he was there, and it’s his house, I

15   guess.

16       Q.  Who did you go with?

17       A.  My whole family went, my mother and my

18   father and my sister and myself.

19       Q.  Did you stay at Neverland?

20       A.  Yes, I did.

21       Q.  How many times do you think you visited

22   Neverland?

23       A.  Too many to remember.  Probably — it would

24   be ten or more, even.  More than ten times.

25       Q.  And how many times do you think you’ve

26   stayed over at Neverland?

27       A.  Every time.

28       Q.  Okay.  Did you ever stay in Michael

9172

1   Jackson’s room?

2       A.  Yes, I have.

3       Q.  How many times do you think you’ve done

4   that?

5       A.  Countless as well.

6       Q.  And how would you describe his room?

7       A.  It’s big.  It’s pretty cool because it’s got

8   lots of fun stuff to do there.  Video games, such as

9   stuff like that.  And it’s probably the best as I

10   can describe it.

11       Q.  Have you ever stayed in Michael Jackson’s

12   bed?

13       A.  Yes, I have.

14       Q.  How many times do you think you have?

15       A.  Countless as well.

16       Q.  Has Mr. Jackson ever molested you?

17       A.  Absolutely not.  And I can tell you right

18   now that if he had, I wouldn’t be here right now.

19       Q.  Has Mr. Jackson ever touched you in a sexual

20   way?

21       A.  Never.  I wouldn’t stand for it.

22       Q.  Has Mr. Jackson ever touched any part of

23   your body in a way that you thought was

24   inappropriate?

25       A.  Never.  It’s not the type of thing that I

26   would stand for.

27       Q.  When you stayed in Mr. Jackson’s bed —

28       A.  Uh-huh.

9173

1       Q.  — on any of those occasions was anyone else

2   there?

3       A.  Yeah.

4       Q.  Who?

5       A.  Well, I can’t — see, I was pretty young at

6   the time, so I can’t remember exactly.  But I know

7   my sister as being there, his cousins have been

8   there.  And — yeah, Macaulay has actually been

9   there as well, Macaulay Culkin.  So there’s been a

10   few people.

11       Q.  What is the longest period you think you’ve

12   ever stayed at Neverland?

13       A.  I couldn’t tell you.  I don’t remember

14   really.

15       Q.  Would it be a week, or three days?

16       A.  Longer than that.

17       Q.  Longer than that?

18       A.  Yeah.  It would probably be a couple weeks,

19   maybe a month at Neverland at one time.

20       Q.  And what do you recall doing at Neverland

21   during the times you stayed there?

22       A.  Playing arcade games.  Going

23   ATV/motorbike-riding around the property.  Going on

24   amusement park rides.  And watching plenty of

25   movies, plenty of cartoons.  Eating very good food.

26       Q.  Do you consider Michael Jackson to be your

27   family friend?

28       A.  Absolutely.

9174

1       Q.  Do you stay in communication with him?

2       A.  Absolutely.

3       Q.  And how do you typically communicate with

4   Michael Jackson?

5       A.  Like he’s a member of the family.  Just

6   always had warm conversations, reminisce about old

7   times.

8       Q.  Are you familiar with a Jacuzzi at

9   Neverland?

10       A.  Yeah.

11       Q.  Ever been in the Jacuzzi?

12       A.  Yes, I have.

13       Q.  Do you recall Michael Jackson ever being in

14   the Jacuzzi with you?

15       A.  I don’t recall.  He possibly could have, but

16   I don’t really remember.

17       Q.  Do you recall ever taking a shower with

18   Michael Jackson?

19       A.  Never.

20       Q.  Now, have you visited Neverland without your

21   parents being with you?

22       A.  Yes.

23       Q.  And how many times do you think you’ve done

24   that?

25       A.  It wouldn’t be that many.  But I couldn’t

26   give you a ballpark figure even.

27       Q.  Now, have you followed this case in the

28   media?

9175

1       A.  No, I haven’t.

2       Q.  Okay.

3       A.  I chose not to.

4       Q.  Are you aware of any allegations being made

5   that Mr. Jackson inappropriately touched you when

6   you were with him?

7       A.  Yes, I am.  And I’m very mad about that.

8       Q.  You’re mad about it?

9       A.  Yeah.

10       Q.  Why?

11       A.  Because it’s untrue, and they’re putting my

12   name through the dirt.  And I’m really, really,

13   really not happy about it.

14           MR. MESEREAU:  No further questions.

15

16                      CROSS-EXAMINATION

17   BY MR. ZONEN:

18       Q.  Mr. Barnes, do you consider it disgraceful

19   to having been molested?

20       A.  Absolutely.

21       Q.  All right.  And why would it be a disgrace

22   for somebody to have been molested?

23       A.  Well, a child is —

24           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  This calls for

25   speculation; foundation.

26           THE COURT:  Sustained.

27       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  How old were you when you

28   first started sharing a bed with Michael Jackson?

9176

1       A.  Couldn’t tell you.  Don’t really remember.

2       Q.  How old were you when you first started

3   visiting Michael Jackson?

4       A.  When I first started visiting, I was nine.

5       Q.  And you visited Neverland with whom?

6       A.  With my parents.

7       Q.  Both your mother and your father?

8       A.  And my sister as well.

9       Q.  Your sister as well.  And how long did you

10   stay at Neverland?

11       A.  The first time?

12       Q.  Yes.

13       A.  I don’t exactly remember.

14       Q.  Did you stay over the week?

15       A.  Yeah.

16       Q.  Did you then visit Neverland on a regular

17   basis thereafter?

18       A.  I wouldn’t say regular, but, yeah, it was

19   quite frequent.

20       Q.  Did you visit Neverland at least once a year

21   thereafter?

22       A.  Yeah.

23       Q.  And when you visited Neverland, would you

24   always stay with Michael Jackson?

25       A.  Yeah, most of the time.

26       Q.  All right.  Now, I asked you, I believe, the

27   age the first time you went.  Did you answer that

28   question?

9177

1       A.  Yeah.

2       Q.  And you said what?  About nine?

3       A.  Yeah.

4       Q.  Okay.  And then you would continue to go

5   each year thereafter?

6       A.  Yeah.

7       Q.  Did you sometimes go more than once a year?

8       A.  Yeah.

9       Q.  And would you stay for longer than one week

10   at a time?

11       A.  Sometimes, I guess, yeah.

12       Q.  Were there occasions where you would stay

13   two or even three weeks?

14       A.  I was young at the time, so I don’t really

15   remember the time frames.

16       Q.  Okay.

17       A.  So it would be purely speculation.

18       Q.  Would it have been summer vacation; that is,

19   your summer vacation in Australia?

20       A.  I really couldn’t tell you.

21       Q.  Did you ever go to Neverland without a

22   parent going with you?

23       A.  Yes.

24       Q.  So sometimes you would fly all the way from

25   Australia to Neverland, is that right, by yourself?

26       A.  Absolutely.

27       Q.  Were you much older than nine years old when

28   you did that?

9178

1       A.  I couldn’t tell you.  But — well, right —

2   yeah, I was older than nine.

3       Q.  Did you visit in your tenth year and your

4   eleventh year and your twelfth year as well?

5       A.  I really couldn’t tell you that.

6       Q.  Did you ever visit in your thirteenth year

7   and your fourteenth year?

8       A.  I don’t remember much about ages.

9       Q.  You can’t tell us how old you were when you

10   stopped visiting Neverland?

11       A.  I still — I continue to visit to this day.

12       Q.  Do you still sleep with Michael Jackson?

13       A.  No, I don’t.

14       Q.  How old were you when you stopped sleeping

15   with Michael Jackson?

16       A.  I couldn’t tell you that.

17       Q.  Why don’t you still sleep with Michael

18   Jackson?

19       A.  Well, he’s got kids now.

20       Q.  And?

21       A.  And I — it would be purely speculation if I

22   told you.  I could not answer that knowingly,

23   like — it’s just —

24       Q.  But during the years that you were visiting

25   Michael Jackson at Neverland, you never stayed

26   anyplace but in his room; is that correct?

27       A.  I couldn’t tell you.

28       Q.  You’re telling us that you don’t remember if

9179

1   you stayed in a guest lodge by yourself or with your

2   mother or if you shared a bed with Michael Jackson?

3       A.  I don’t remember staying in the guest lodge

4   by myself.

5       Q.  But it’s true, sir, that you stayed

6   virtually the entire time in his bedroom; is that

7   right?

8       A.  Yeah.

9       Q.  And during that time nobody else stayed in

10   the bedroom with you other than you and Michael

11   Jackson; is that true?

12       A.  No, that’s not true.

13       Q.  On what percentage of the occasions that you

14   visited Michael Jackson was there somebody else

15   staying in that room?

16       A.  I couldn’t tell you.

17       Q.  Can you tell us the names of the people who

18   stayed in the room with you?

19       A.  My sister.  Macaulay Culkin.  There was

20   Levon and Elijah.  There was Frank, Eddie, and

21   Dominick.

22       Q.  Was Frank —

23       A.  Prince as well.

24           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection, he hasn’t finished

25   the question.

26           THE WITNESS:  His son Prince as well.

27       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Prince?  Prince is how old

28   now?

9180

1       A.  I’m not quite sure.

2       Q.  About what, seven?

3       A.  Yeah.  I guess so.

4       Q.  And how old was Prince when he stayed in the

5   room with you and Michael Jackson?

6       A.  I think he was three.

7       Q.  All right.  So it was about four years ago?

8       A.  Yeah.

9       Q.  So you stayed in the room with Michael

10   Jackson when you were 18 years old?

11       A.  Yeah.

12       Q.  You’re 22 now?

13       A.  23.  23.

14       Q.  So you were 19 years old?

15       A.  Yeah, I guess.

16       Q.  Did you share a bed with him at that time?

17       A.  Yeah, I did.

18       Q.  You did.  Have you been sharing a bed with

19   him consistently from age nine until age 19?

20       A.  What do you mean by “consistent”?

21       Q.  Well, in all the times that you visit,

22   predominately do you stay in his room, in his bed?

23       A.  Yeah.

24       Q.  Did you do it when you were ten years old as

25   well?

26       A.  Yeah.

27       Q.  Did you do it when you were 11 years old as

28   well?

9181

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  Most of the times you did it, there was

3   nobody else in the room; is that correct?

4       A.  I guess you could say that.

5       Q.  Because Macaulay Culkin was only in the room

6   with you once or twice; isn’t that true?

7       A.  I couldn’t tell you how many times.

8       Q.  Could he have been in the room 20 or 30

9   times?

10       A.  Probably not.

11       Q.  So really it’s closer to once or twice; is

12   that right?

13       A.  Yeah, I guess so.

14       Q.  All right.  And your sister stayed there the

15   first time you visited; is that right?

16       A.  Not just the first time.

17       Q.  Did she stay there the second time?

18       A.  I — look, I don’t really remember.

19       Q.  Did your sister share a bed with you and

20   Michael Jackson ever?

21       A.  I can’t recall.

22       Q.  You can’t recall if your sister shared a

23   bed?

24       A.  I can’t remember.

25       Q.  When did your sister stop visiting

26   Neverland?

27       A.  She still visits to this day.

28       Q.  Does she still share a bed with you and

9182

1   Michael Jackson?

2       A.  No.

3       Q.  When was the last time your sister shared a

4   bed with you and Michael Jackson?

5       A.  I couldn’t tell you.  I don’t know the exact

6   period of time.

7       Q.  Could you have been 15 or 16 years old?

8       A.  I couldn’t tell you.

9       Q.  Could you have been ten?

10       A.  I couldn’t tell.

11       Q.  Mr. Barnes, the best you can tell us about

12   when your sister last shared a bed with you and

13   Michael Jackson, you have no idea?

14       A.  It’s not something that I think of.  What —

15   why would I try and remember that?

16       Q.  Is there —

17       A.  Why would I think about it?

18       Q.  Is there any other 35-year-old man that you

19   slept with when you were ten years old besides

20   Michael Jackson?

21       A.  Yes.

22       Q.  Who?

23       A.  My uncle.

24       Q.  All right.  A family member.

25       A.  Yeah.

26       Q.  Who else?

27       A.  That would probably be it.  I can’t recall

28   any others.

9183

1       Q.  All right.  Now, with whom do you live at

2   this time?

3       A.  My parents and my sister.

4       Q.  And both your parents?

5       A.  Yeah.

6       Q.  And that’s in Australia?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  All right.  Did your father ever visit

9   Neverland with you?

10       A.  Yes, he did.

11       Q.  When your father visited Neverland with you,

12   where did you stay?

13       A.  Both in the guesthouse and both with him.

14       Q.  Both in the guesthouse and with Mr. Jackson?

15       A.  I stayed with Mr. Jackson, yeah.

16       Q.  Did you ever have a conversation with your

17   father about the propriety of sharing a bed with a

18   35-year-old man?

19       A.  Not that I recall.

20       Q.  Did you ever have a conversation with your

21   mother about that, whether that was a wise thing to

22   do, to share a bed with a 35-year-old man?

23       A.  Not that I recall.

24       Q.  Did he ever show you any sexually explicit

25   material?

26       A.  Absolutely not.

27           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; beyond the scope.

28           THE COURT:  Overruled.  The answer is,

9184

1   “Absolutely not.”

2       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Were you aware that he

3   possessed sexually explicit material?

4       A.  No.

5       Q.  Did you ever travel with Michael Jackson

6   anywhere?

7       A.  Yes, I did.

8       Q.  Where?

9       A.  South America, North America, Africa, and

10   Europe.

11       Q.  On those occasions —

12       A.  And Australia as well, I’m sorry.

13       Q.  On those occasions did you share a bed with

14   him?

15       A.  Yes.

16       Q.  Were any other people present while you were

17   in the room with him?

18       A.  I don’t recall.  I can’t — I can’t

19   remember.

20       Q.  Was your mother with you when you traveled

21   through South America?

22       A.  I think so.

23       Q.  You think so?

24       A.  Look, when I was young, I wasn’t really

25   thinking about this sort of stuff.  I wasn’t trying

26   to retain in my memory this sort of stuff.  And

27   what’s sad is that I traveled to all these countries

28   and I really don’t remember much of them.  So it’s

9185

1   all sort of — it’s all sort of meshed into one.

2       Q.  Mr. Barnes, how old were you when you

3   traveled through South America with Mr. Jackson?

4       A.  To tell the truth, I cannot remember.

5       Q.  You can’t tell whether you were 19 or 10?

6       A.  Well, I wasn’t 19.  It was in my middle

7   teens, maybe — no, it would have been in my

8   early — early teens.

9       Q.  12?

10       A.  It could have been possibly 12.

11       Q.  So you were 12 or 13.  You don’t know if

12   your mother was there with you when you traveled

13   through South America?

14       A.  She was, actually.

15       Q.  In fact, you traveled quite a bit with Mr.

16   Jackson without your mother being present; isn’t

17   that true?

18       A.  No.

19       Q.  Did you travel through North America with

20   Mr. Jackson without your mother?

21       A.  Yes.

22       Q.  And in how many cities through North America

23   did you go without your mother and Mr. Jackson?

24       A.  I’m not too sure.

25       Q.  Six or seven, perhaps eight?

26       A.  I couldn’t tell you.

27       Q.  Was he performing at the time, Mr. Jackson?

28       A.  For which?

9186

1       Q.  On the trip through North America, was he

2   performing?

3       A.  No, he wasn’t.

4       Q.  Did you travel with him when he was

5   performing?

6       A.  Yes.

7       Q.  Was that — in South America, was he

8   performing then?

9       A.  Yes.

10       Q.  And every night after the performance, you

11   would go with him to his room; is that correct?

12       A.  Yes.

13       Q.  And you stayed in his bed that night?

14       A.  Yep.

15       Q.  In North America when you traveled, your

16   mother was not there?

17       A.  Not — well, see, she went to some cities,

18   like we all went to some cities, and sometimes we —

19   I went.  Like on some of the occasions when I was

20   gone, coming over here alone, we’d go around.  But

21   sometimes when my whole family was there, we’d go

22   around, too.

23       Q.  How many times did you come to the United

24   States by yourself?

25       A.  Probably only two or three maybe.

26       Q.  And did Mr. Jackson arrange for that to

27   happen?

28       A.  He arranged for all of our trips.

9187

1       Q.  So all of the transportation for you and

2   your family from Australia to Neverland; is that

3   correct?

4       A.  Yeah.

5       Q.  And then all the travels that you did

6   through the United States and through South America?

7       A.  Uh-huh.  I was very fortunate.

8       Q.  I’m sorry?

9       A.  I was very fortunate.

10       Q.  When you slept with Mr. Jackson, what

11   generally did you wear?

12       A.  Sorry?

13       Q.  When you slept with Mr. Jackson in the same

14   bed, what would you wear?

15       A.  Pajama pants, T-shirt, pajama top sometimes.

16       Q.  Always?

17       A.  Well, always pajama pants, always a T-shirt.

18       Q.  And Mr. Jackson?

19       A.  Exactly the same thing.

20       Q.  Always pajamas and pajama bottoms?

21       A.  Uh-huh.

22       Q.  I’d like to show you a series of photographs

23   and tell me if you recognize them, the people in

24   this photo.  Let’s start with 893.

25       A.  Yep.

26       Q.  Who’s that?

27       A.  That’s me and him.

28       Q.  Are these Polaroids?

9188

1       A.  They look so.

2       Q.  Do you remember taking these pictures?

3       A.  Not at all.

4       Q.  Do you remember where you were?

5       A.  Not at all.

6       Q.  Can you tell us about how old you were?

7       A.  Probably about 11 maybe, 10.

8       Q.  I notice you’ve changed your hairstyle since

9   then, haven’t you?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  You were about nine or ten.

12           So this was early on in your meeting with

13   Mr. Jackson; is that right?

14       A.  Yeah, I would say so.

15       Q.  All right.  This is 893, and that has two

16   photos on the front, and two photos on the back; is

17   that right?

18       A.  Yep.

19       Q.  And that’s you in the two photos in the back

20   as well?

21       A.  Yep.

22       Q.  All right.  892, is that you as well?

23       A.  Yep.

24       Q.  And Mr. Jackson?

25       A.  Yep.  Yep.

26       Q.  And the two on the back?  Do these appear to

27   have been taken at the same time?

28       A.  These?

9189

1       Q.  Yes.

2       A.  Yeah, I’d say so.

3       Q.  891, who is that?

4       A.  That’s Michael Jackson.

5       Q.  Did you take those pictures?

6       A.  Couldn’t tell you.

7       Q.  They appear to have been taken at the same

8   time; no?

9       A.  Possibly.

10       Q.  All right.  If I were to tell you that they

11   were all found together, would that suggest that

12   they were all taken at the same time?

13           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; calls for

14   speculation.

15           THE COURT:  Sustained.

16       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Turn it over, if you would,

17   to the back side.  Three more pictures on the back.

18   What are they?

19       A.  Of Michael Jackson.

20       Q.  Do you remember those pictures?

21       A.  Not at all.

22       Q.  Does that look familiar to you?

23       A.  No.

24       Q.  Mr. Barnes, did you take those photographs?

25       A.  I couldn’t tell you.  I don’t — I couldn’t

26   tell you, no.

27       Q.  890, two pictures on the front.  Would you

28   take a look at those two pictures?

9190

1       A.  Uh-huh.

2       Q.  One of those is you; is that right?

3       A.  Yes, it is.

4       Q.  You appear to be in bed.

5       A.  Uh-huh.

6       Q.  The other picture is what?

7       A.  Appears to be Michael Jackson.

8       Q.  And he’s in his underwear; is that right?

9       A.  Yes, it is.

10       Q.  889, is that you?

11       A.  Yes, it is.

12       Q.  And anything on the back?

13       A.  Yep.

14       Q.  Is that you as well?

15       A.  Yes, it is.

16       Q.  All right.  Do you remember those pictures?

17       A.  Don’t remember taking them, but I can tell

18   you where they were taken.

19       Q.  Where?

20       A.  They were taken at the ranch.

21       Q.  They were taken at the ranch?

22       A.  In a photo booth.

23       Q.  There’s a photo booth at the ranch on that

24   one there?

25       A.  Yep.

26       Q.  Do you recognize the background on any of

27   the other photographs?

28       A.  On these?

9191

1       Q.  Yes.

2       A.  No, I don’t.  No.

3       Q.  Are all of these photographs accurate

4   photographs of the subjects depicted within?  In

5   other words, the photographs of Mr. Jackson really

6   are Mr. Jackson and the photographs of you really

7   are you?

8       A.  That one’s a bit sketchy, but the rest,

9   yeah.

10       Q.  The one in his underwear?

11       A.  Yeah.

12       Q.  You’re not sure that’s him?

13       A.  Well, you can’t really see the face

14   properly.

15       Q.  Mr. Barnes, before coming from Australia,

16   did you speak with anybody about your testimony?

17       A.  No.

18       Q.  They simply flew you from Australia to

19   California?

20       A.  Well, they explained that I’d be a witness.

21       Q.  And then they interviewed you after you got

22   here?

23       A.  The interview?

24       Q.  Yes.  You had an interview with an

25   investigator —

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  — who works for Mr. Mesereau; is that

28   right?

9192

1       A.  Yes.

2       Q.  And that interview took place after you got

3   to California?

4       A.  Yes, it did.

5       Q.  So they had no way of knowing what you were

6   going to say while you were still in Australia?

7       A.  No.

8       Q.  Because they never talked with you at all?

9       A.  Not about the case, not being a witness.  I

10   signed a declaration.

11       Q.  You signed a declaration from where?

12       A.  From — I was at home.  Melbourne,

13   Australia.

14       Q.  Melbourne, Australia?

15       A.  Yeah.

16       Q.  All right.  So somebody wrote a declaration

17   and they sent it to you, is that right, in

18   Australia?

19       A.  Faxed it.

20       Q.  I’m sorry?

21       A.  Faxed it.

22       Q.  They faxed it you.  But you had to have

23   talked to somebody to tell them what to put in the

24   declaration, didn’t you do that?

25       A.  Yes, I did.

26       Q.  So you did talk with somebody while you were

27   in Australia?

28       A.  Yes.

9193

1       Q.  Who was the person that you talked with

2   while you were in Australia?

3       A.  It was Brian Oxman and some — I think it

4   might be Scott Ross as well.  But I’m not exactly

5   sure.

6       Q.  And then they prepared a declaration, they

7   sent it to you; is that correct?

8       A.  That’s correct.

9           MR. ZONEN:  Madam Clerk, could I have

10   another sticker that says….

11       Q.  Let me show you 894, four photographs on it.

12           MR. MESEREAU:  Excuse me, Counsel.  Are

13   these what I saw before?  Are these what you showed

14   me earlier?

15           MR. ZONEN:  Not the first set.  Let me show

16   you.

17       Q.  893, would you take a look at that, please,

18   both sides of that?

19       A.  Yep.

20       Q.  That contains a total of six pictures, two

21   on one side, four on the back; is that right?

22       A.  That’s correct.

23       Q.  And those are all pictures of you, one

24   picture of Mr. Jackson?

25       A.  Correct.

26       Q.  894?

27       A.  Uh-huh.

28       Q.  That’s who?

9194

1       A.  Michael Jackson.

2       Q.  All four of those pictures?

3       A.  Correct.

4       Q.  Do you recognize the location?

5       A.  No, I don’t.

6       Q.  You have no recollection of that?

7       A.  No.

8       Q.  Could that have been a hotel you stayed in?

9       A.  Quite possibly.

10       Q.  All right.  896?

11       A.  Uh-huh.

12       Q.  Does any of that look familiar to you?

13       A.  Is this New York?  I don’t remember any of

14   these pictures.

15       Q.  Do you remember any of those pictures being

16   taken?

17       A.  Not at all.

18       Q.  And your age, approximately, in those

19   photographs?

20       A.  I would have absolutely no idea.

21       Q.  You would have no idea at all?

22       A.  Well, these ones of me?

23       Q.  Yes.  You.

24       A.  Probably about the same age.

25       Q.  Okay.  Does it appear that those photographs

26   were taken about the same time?

27       A.  Purely speculation, but, yes.

28       Q.  Is your hairstyle the same as —

9195

1           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection; move to strike.

2           THE COURT:  Stricken.  Speculation.

3       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Based on your familiarity

4   with yourself, does it appear that you are about the

5   same age in each of the photographs so far shown to

6   you?

7       A.  Yes.

8       Q.  And all those photographs are you with

9   Michael Jackson in a room someplace; is that right?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  You have no recollection of when those

12   photographs were taken?

13       A.  Absolutely not.

14       Q.  And the pictures of Mr. Jackson, you have no

15   recollection of actually taking those yourself?

16       A.  Absolutely not.

17       Q.  Were there many occasions, when you were ten

18   years old, that you traveled by yourself with Mr.

19   Jackson?

20       A.  I wouldn’t say — well, I’m not sure I

21   understand the question.

22       Q.  Did you travel more than one trip with Mr.

23   Jackson when you were about the age of 10 by

24   yourself?

25       A.  Do you mean from my home?

26       Q.  Yes.

27       A.  Around?

28           I can’t really remember.  I can’t remember

9196

1   how many times.  It might have been one, might have

2   been two.  I can’t really tell you.

3       Q.  On the occasions when you traveled with Mr.

4   Jackson and he was on tour, did you go to all of the

5   concerts?

6       A.  I’m not sure.

7       Q.  Was there ever a woman traveling with Mr.

8   Jackson while you were traveling with him?

9       A.  A woman?

10       Q.  Yes.

11       A.  I’m not — what do you mean, though?

12       Q.  Somebody with whom he was close to.  I don’t

13   mean an assistant.  I mean a friend or a girlfriend.

14       A.  Not that I recall.

15       Q.  At the time that you were traveling with him

16   in South America, was he ever traveling with a

17   woman?  And I don’t mean an assistant.  A

18   girlfriend.

19           MR. MESEREAU:  Object as beyond the scope.

20           THE COURT:  Sustained.

21       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Were there ever any other

22   people traveling with you as part of your unit?

23       A.  Where?

24       Q.  When you traveled.

25       A.  Sometimes.

26       Q.  Did any of them sleep in the same room with

27   you and Mr. Jackson?

28       A.  I can’t really recall.  I don’t remember.

9197

1       Q.  Did anyone ever share a bed with you and Mr.

2   Jackson, where there were three of you in the same

3   bed together?

4       A.  Can’t really remember.

5       Q.  Did your sister ever sleep with you in the

6   same bed and Mr. Jackson?

7       A.  Unfortunately, I can’t really remember that

8   either.

9       Q.  Do you know Wade Robson?

10       A.  Yes.

11       Q.  How well do you know Wade Robson?

12       A.  Not very.

13       Q.  Have you kept up some kind of friendship

14   with Mr. Robson?

15       A.  Nope.

16       Q.  Is that a “no”?

17       A.  That’s a “no.”

18       Q.  When was the last time you spoke with Mr.

19   Robson?

20       A.  Today.

21       Q.  All right.  Today you saw him.  When was the

22   last time prior to today?

23       A.  Yesterday.

24       Q.  Okay.  So you’ve been staying at Neverland,

25   have you?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  Did you have an opportunity to talk with Mr.

28   Robson?

9198

1       A.  I had an opportunity, yeah.  Yeah.

2       Q.  And did you speak with Mr. Robson?

3       A.  Yes.

4       Q.  Did you discuss your testimony?

5       A.  Absolutely not.

6       Q.  And why not?

7       A.  Because it was explained to us that we were

8   not allowed to.

9       Q.  Who was that who told you that?

10       A.  The lawyers did.

11       Q.  Did they say why you weren’t allowed to?

12       A.  Isn’t it against the law?

13       Q.  Is that what they told you, it was illegal

14   to talk with each other?

15       A.  No, they didn’t.  They just explained that

16   it wasn’t — they just said, “Don’t talk about the

17   case.”

18       Q.  Were you aware of Wade Robson spending long

19   periods of time with Michael Jackson?

20           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  Beyond the scope;

21   relevance.

22           THE COURT:  Sustained.

23       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Did Michael Jackson ever

24   speak to you about other boys who spent nights with

25   him in his room?

26           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  Beyond the scope;

27   relevance; foundation.

28           THE COURT:  Sustained.

9199

1       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Did you ever talk with

2   Michael Jackson about the propriety of sharing a bed

3   with him?

4           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  Beyond the scope;

5   foundation; and relevance.

6           THE COURT:  Overruled.

7       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Go ahead and answer the

8   question.

9       A.  Not that I recall.

10       Q.  At no time did you ever have a conversation

11   with Michael Jackson where the subject of the

12   conversation was whether or not you should be

13   sharing a bed with him?

14       A.  Not that I recall.

15       Q.  Did he ever tell you that you were like

16   family to him?

17       A.  All the time.

18       Q.  All the time.  Did he ever tell you that you

19   should trust him?

20       A.  Yeah.

21       Q.  Did he ever tell you that he was like a

22   father to you?

23       A.  He may have, yes.

24       Q.  Did he ever tell you that he considered you

25   to be like a son to him?

26       A.  Yes.

27       Q.  Was that something he frequently said to

28   you?

9200

1       A.  Not frequently.

2       Q.  Was that something that he frequently said

3   to you during the early stages of your relationship

4   when you were about age eight?

5       A.  Never met him when I was age eight.

6       Q.  You were about nine?

7       A.  Yeah.

8       Q.  Okay.  So how long after you had begun

9   visiting Neverland did Mr. Jackson speak to you in

10   such terms, tell you you were like family to him or

11   like a son to him?

12       A.  I couldn’t tell you.

13       Q.  Did he ever have a conversation with your

14   mother of that nature, tell your mother that he

15   considered her to be like family to him as well?

16       A.  Wouldn’t have a clue.

17       Q.  That was never done in your presence?

18       A.  Possibly.  I don’t remember.

19       Q.  Did your mother ever have a conversation

20   with him about anything in your presence?

21       A.  Quite possibly.

22       Q.  Is it the case that when you were kids and

23   running around Neverland, on occasion you would get

24   fairly rowdy?

25       A.  Nope.

26       Q.  You were always fairly well disciplined and

27   behaved?

28       A.  I was brought up right.

9201

1       Q.  How about the other kids who were at

2   Neverland while you were there?

3       A.  As far as I remember, yeah, we were all

4   pretty — there were a couple maybe, but I never

5   really saw an outbreak.

6       Q.  You never saw what?

7       A.  An outbreak.

8       Q.  An outbreak?

9           Who were the other boys who were there about

10   the time that you were there?

11       A.  I saw Mac there, Macaulay Culkin.  His —

12   Levon and Elijah.  Frank, Eddie, Dominick —

13       Q.  How old was Frank at the time?

14           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  He hasn’t

15   finished his answer yet, Your Honor.

16           THE COURT:  Sustained.

17       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  Go ahead.

18       A.  Aldo.  Marie Nicole.  My sister, of course.

19   That’s all I really remember.

20       Q.  Of the ones that you’ve mentioned, how many

21   of them shared Michael Jackson’s bedroom while you

22   were there?

23       A.  All of them have.

24       Q.  Did — all of them?

25       A.  I’m pretty sure.

26       Q.  On how many nights do you think, all at the

27   same time?

28       A.  Not at the same time, because like one trip

9202

1   we’d see — we saw Mac, and the other trips we saw

2   everyone else.

3       Q.  And would they share the same bed with you

4   and Mr. Jackson?

5       A.  I can’t honestly recall that.

6       Q.  Do you remember any of those people who you

7   just mentioned sharing a bed with Mr. Jackson in

8   your presence?

9       A.  Yeah.

10       Q.  Who?

11       A.  Mac.

12       Q.  Macaulay Culkin?

13       A.  Yeah.

14       Q.  Who else?

15       A.  Frank.

16       Q.  Frank Cascio?

17       A.  Yeah.

18       Q.  How old was Frank Cascio at the time?

19           MR. MESEREAU:  Objection.  He hasn’t

20   finished his answer yet.

21           THE WITNESS:  Eddie.

22           THE COURT:  I can’t tell if he has or not.

23           Have you finished your answer?

24           THE WITNESS:  No, I haven’t.

25           THE COURT:  Go ahead.

26           THE WITNESS:  Eddie.  That’s probably —

27   that’s all I can recall.

28       Q.  BY MR. ZONEN:  “Eddie” is Eddie who?

9203

1       A.  Cascio.

2       Q.  That’s Frank’s brother?

3       A.  Yeah.

4       Q.  How old was Frank at that time?

5       A.  Wouldn’t be able to tell you.

6       Q.  Well, was he a child?

7       A.  I never knew him as a child.  He’s — he’s

8   older than me, so….

9       Q.  You only know Frank Cascio as an adult?

10       A.  No.  He’s like a year older, two years older

11   than me.

12       Q.  You said you never knew him as a child?

13       A.  Well, as a child, I consider to be under the

14   age of 10.

15       Q.  How about as a young teenager?

16       A.  Yeah.

17       Q.  So you saw him there as a young teenager?

18       A.  Yeah.

19       Q.  Would he share Michael Jackson’s bed as

20   well?

21       A.  If I recall correctly, yeah.

22       Q.  And Eddie, how old was Eddie during that

23   time?

24       A.  Like he’s — it would have been a young

25   teenager as well.

26       Q.  What’s the longest period of time that any

27   of those people stayed in Michael Jackson’s room

28   while you were there?  In other words, how many

9204

1   consecutive days did that happen?

2       A.  Can’t recall properly.

3       Q.  Did Michael Jackson ever tell you that he

4   loved you?

5       A.  Yeah, all the time.

6       Q.  Did he ever touch you?

7       A.  In what manner?

8       Q.  Did he ever kiss you?

9       A.  On the cheek, on the forehead, yeah.

10       Q.  Often?

11       A.  I wouldn’t say often, but, yeah.  I’ve —

12   I can’t really remember these things.  It’s not

13   something that would — you know, I would try to

14   remember.

15           MR. ZONEN:  I have no further questions.

16           MR. MESEREAU:  I have no further questions,

17   Your Honor.

18           THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  You may

19   step down.

20           I think we’ll start the next witness

21   tomorrow.

22           (To the jury)  I’ll see you tomorrow at

23   8:30.  Remember the admonition.  Have a good

24   evening.

25           (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)

26                             –o0o–

27

28

9205

1                    REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE

2

3

4   THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF      )

5   CALIFORNIA,                    )

6                 Plaintiff,        )

7           -vs-                   )  No. 1133603

8   MICHAEL JOE JACKSON,           )

9                Defendant.        )

10

11

12           I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR

13   #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby certify:

14           That the foregoing pages 9016 through 9205

15   contain a true and correct transcript of the

16   proceedings had in the within and above-entitled

17   matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at

18   said proceedings on May 5, 2005, and thereafter

19   reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

20   transcription under my direction.

21              DATED: Santa Maria, California,

22   May 5, 2005.

23

24

25

26

27           MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304

28           OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

9206

Michael’s Love for Animals and His Secret Giving

    • Adriana from Denmark has agreed to share her story below.  She had the opportunity to meet Michael and spend some time with and work with him on several occasions.  She was working in London at an animal shelter at the time.  Michael was very fond of animals, in the same way he was with children, and he wanted to help in any way he could.  He made sure that these donations were kept private because he was doing them from his heart, not for publicity.  Below is her story.

      “Way back in 1996 or if it was 1997, I worked at a animal (mostly dogs) shelter just outside London. I worked there till 2007.

      When Michael and his entourage were leaving the hotel, (they were under the hotel where the garage was), a little dog was hiding under the car. Michael being his usual self  didn´t just let some people take care of it.   He wanted to know where the dog would be taken and what would happen to it.

      A staff at the hotel knew about us and was a doggie walker at the time, she contacted us but we had no room for the dog. They came with it anyway and I took it home with me for a couple of days.

      Michael got to know we had no room and wondered why. He was told as it was at the time that we had no space and we had no money to build more. That was the first time we got money from him.

      Michael made sure we got money to build more and rent more space for the animals. He thought it was wrong that such things would be all dependent on donations from people. He thought the state or, how you say, would give money too. In some countries there are so many stray dogs, and he felt as bad for that as for the children.

      One year after he had made that donation he wanted to come and visit. To get him there unnoticed seemed to be a mission for the White House people, but it wasn´t really.

      When he came there the first person he met was me with two puppies on my knee.    I was on the floor feeding them.  He didn´t say hello or anything, he just went down on the floor and and started to talk with them in that silly voice you use with animals.   It took him a few minutes before he looked up and said he was sorry and he offered me his hand.   I still had one puppy in my hand and a bottle in the other.  He giggled when I put it down and we said hello.

      He got up and wanted to take a look around. He was terrified over how many dogs we had there, not so many cats, sometimes it was full with cats, but more or less always more dogs. And he got very emotional  and said he wanted to take all of them with him home.   Like most people wanted when they came there. And me too, it was very hard working there and after so many years I was drained since it became more and more and people do horrible things to their animals.

      After a round there and being explained how things work, he invited us for dinner later that night. At that dinner he talked about how he could make a donation every year, and how it would take place without (the fact that he was making donations) getting out. It fell on me to take care of it.

      Next time he was in London he wanted to meet and we did. That is when he asked if i would like to come to Neverland and spend some time there. I could bring a friend and did.

      Those 2 weeks were the best thing ever in my life. Not because of Michael, but because of the place. I was never a Michael Jackson fan but I had seen him in concert, but I didn´t have any records with him. And I liked his music, but not in that fan way you know. But it was still very exciting to be at his home. It´s an amazing place really.

      He´s so proud of his zoo and he showed us around. We were allowed to take out the horses for rides whenever we wanted, we were given free space on the ranch. That is how I got more close to him than just making sure his donations went through.   I´m not claiming to be a friend of his, but I think I got close enough to make him feel he could trust me, if only a little. I still have a few text messages from him.

      When I first met him I had no cellphone, and it was just in later years he texted. It was hilarious to see him trying to compose a text message.  He kept asking someone “how do I do now? How do I do a question mark. How do I do this”.  It was funny.

      The last donation he did was huge and they are still doing good on that one, and will do for long hopefully if nothing unexpected happens.

      The second time he visited us we were outside in our rest area for the dogs.  It´s a huge fenced place behind our house, with trees and such things.   A very good place for the dogs to play around. We had one dog who got crazy at times and started to run around like a mental thing.   And they look funny doing it and you start laughing and so did Michael, and he couldn´t stop really, and as soon as he looked at someone he started to laugh even more.

      He didn´t stand still and at one point he bent forward and knocked his forehead in the back of a bench standing there. First it came an ouch from him but then he broke down completely and so did we. I had pain in my stomach the day after because of laughing so hard.  He got a little bump on his forehead and he kept talking about it the next time we met.   He said “It´s dangerous to laugh at times”.

      I don´t know what more I can say, it´s so many little funny things that would happen with him around, it´s not easy to point out a few.

      Adriana

      Thank you Adriana for sharing your story and your times with Michael, with all of us.  I think it really helps to further show his true personality and what he was like.  What a kind, generous, caring soul he was.  ~ Debbie

Anchor Lee Thomas, Michael Jackson and The Truth About Vitiligo…Understanding is Key

Anchorman Lee Thomas several years ago without his makeup

On Michael Jackson:  “When I learned that I had it. I didn’t believe that he (Michael Jackson) had it.  I was a skeptic.  Then I got the disease, researched the disease, and then I went, ‘can’t believe that…’ all the things that I thought, and it made me feel almost bad that I made so many assumptions about someone I had never met.

Anchorman Lee Thomas

“I have a skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of my skin, it’s something that I cannot help, OK? But when people make up stories that I don’t want to be what I am it hurts me.”

Michael Jackson
Oprah Winfrey interview 1993

It will surprise and shock (and horrify) some as to the origins of the “freak” moniker and how it ties into vitiligo.

Some of you may be shocked at the contents of the following video and the origins of the “wacko jacko, freak” monikers and how they go back to vitiligo sufferers of years ago being used as circus freak show acts:

Much thanks to David Edwards for alerting me to this video

So much rumor and speculation surrounds the drastic change of Michael Jackson’s skincolor.  So many misconceptions out there about Michael, his innocence, the accusations and allegations, his skincolor, and nearly everything else about him became, to the media, and the public, fair game for discussion and jokes, many times with no facts or truth to back up what was being said.

Here, anchorman Lee Thomas speaks about his journey with the disease, and also on Michael Jackson, the pressure Michael Jackson was under being a global celebrity with this disease, the treatments available (which include a form of skin bleaching to make the skin a more uniform color), and why Michael’s skin drastically changed.  He mentions how he himself has to reapply his makeup after a newscast and how difficult it must have been for Michael performing, dancing, sweating on stage and how Michael’s signature glove figured in and how once he stopped wearing the glove, how Michael’s hands resembled Lee’s, because they were pigment-less.

Continue to read and watch the quotes, information and videos below, including a very surprising, eye-opening look at the origins of the “freak show” name-calling of those who suffer from Vitiligo and how that trickled down to Michael Jackson and others who suffer from the disease.

I’m just a reporter…you read what you get, you study as much as you can….I thought everything that every regular person thought about him from the outside looking in….and then when the spots happened, it’s like smacking  you into reality.  You go, okay, you got this, but what do you do?  And then you think, what would you do if you had a face that looked like this (referring to his own face) and you were THE most famous person on the planet at that time, we’re talking about right after Thriller.  What do you do?  You hide it.  SO what do you do?  You hide.  You hide it.  Until you can get your mind around what in the world is going on and if it keeps going, then what do you do?

At one point, Thomas had a child run away from him screaming when she saw his face as she didn’t understand.  He said that he stayed in his house for 2 weeks after that.  Watching this will help everyone get a much better perspective on what Michael Jackson went through having this very appearance-altering disease while in the public eye.

What I know about him, and what I know about this disease is that yes he had it, yes, nobody believed that he had it and people thought he wanted to be white, which is far from anyone’s truth who has this disease.  It’s so much not a choice.

You will also see how much Lee’s vitiligo has progressed in the last few years from the above picture:

Here is the interview:

In Part 3 below, Thomas mentions that sometimes it was Michael Jackson himself putting these odd stories out.  To my knowledge, this is speculation and has never been said to have been true.  In fact, Michael himself denied it many times.  But the rest of the interview really brings much more understanding of the emotional aspects of the disease.

So, for someone to say that anyone with this disease wanted to be what this disease is, which is not even white.  It’s void of color…So for someone to say that he (Michael Jackson) wanted to be white, it’s not white.  It’s void of color, and he didn’t want it.  It happened, and it happens on it’s own and it just progresses on it’s own..

People think whatever they want, the longer you’re quiet.  Once you educate them, everything changes.  Once you educate them, hopefully people understand that there is a reason that this is happening and that it is out of your control, and you try to control it, but nothing is really under your control….

Your body fights for normalcy, so you get spots of pigment, back, little dots of brown would come in, they do with me, so you get these spots and I heard that one of his dancers said he had a few spots on his hand coming in…or I talked to a friend of his that said he had some spots on his back.  The pigment continues to fight to come back.  I remember seeing a picture of him (Michael Jackson) and he’s wearing a mask, and the mask  was moved a little bit and you could see little spots around his nose and around his mouth, brown pigment spots and that’s the thing about bleaching.  If I have to bleach, I have to bleach for the rest of my life….

I know numerous people who depigment completely and they don’t get what I get.  The stares.  The look away.  I chose to be the spokesperson for this disease.  So  when I walk down the street, I choose to look forward and not give anybody eye contact.  So they can stare at me, and that’s what happens.  So I understand what they’ve done (depigment) and I don’t fault them for it….

If you look at me, you keep looking.  You keep staring.  You go, what is that?  What’s wrong with that guy?  You know.  All the way down the street.  All the way across the room.  It’s tough to live with.

With the strength of others’ support, I’ve grown strong in this, but I couldn’t imagine having MILLIONS of people looking at you and getting that negative look from everybody.  I don’t know if I were him (Michael Jackson) if I could do what I am doing now, because mine was small and it grew into something larger where I go to different places and people expect to see me like this.  I speak about my journey and they expect to see this, so they almost understand, they show me compassion.  But there’s a lot of compassion-less people that don’t have nice things to say.

Lee mentions that IF Michael would have talked about it, he feels Michael would have gotten support.

“I’m proud of my heritage.  I’m proud of it.  I’m proud to be black.  I’m honored to be black, and I just hope one day they will be fair in portraying me the way I really, really am….just a loving, peaceful guy wanting to make wonderful, unprecedented entertainment and songs and music and film for the world.  That’s all  I want to do.  I’m no threat.  I just want to do that.  That’s what I want to do.  To bring  joy to the world.”

Michael Jackson in a Steve Harvey radio interview in 2002

The truth, however, is that Michael DID talk about it, he talked about it in his big interview with Oprah and was very candid about it, but, unfortunately, the media and the public did NOT support him as they have Lee, but rather criticized him further, did not believe him, and according to people who knew Michael well, the media DID know as a fact that he suffered from this disease, but they continued to run their “skin bleaching, wanting to be white” stories, and still do to this day.

Does it hurt?  I’m Human.  I Am Human
Michael Jackson

Short video showing picture proof of Michael Jackson’s vitiligo.  Please ignore the last statements in the video which are said in anger by the person who created it:

Here was Lee’s original 20/20 interview done several years ago:

I will go into this subject and many others in much greater detail in the upcoming conclusion to the “Debunking the Demonic Deception” series, Parts 4 & 5.

“I believe what people fail to realize is that Michael was a human being.”

Dave Dave
Long-time friend of Michael’s and one of the many people whom Michael cared for and helped throughout the years

For further information on Vitiligo and videos that show Michael’s vitiligo, please visit http://www.reflectionsonthedance.com/Factsversusfiction.html#anchor_114

Stranger In Moscow…Just Wanting to Be Loved For Who He Was

“I put a lot of mannequins in my room in the past.  I still have mannequins in my room, because I used to be very lonely.  Painfully lonely. So lonely.  You have no idea.  I used to walk the streets looking for people to talk to.  I’m talking about the height of one’s career.  “Off the Wall,” “Bad”, “Thriller,” and people…I would walk up to them, strangers, and say ‘Will you be my friend?’  They’d go ‘Oh my God, it’s Michael Jackson!’  That’s not what I wanted.  I wanted somebody to love (me) or be my friend for me and not for the external me.”


Michael Jackson
From the Martin Bashir documentary outtakes

By Deborah L. Kunesh

Something I’ve given a lot of thought to lately…Michael’s desire to be loved and befriended because of who he was inside, because of “Mike” and not “Michael Jackson”….to be seen as a human being and to so desperately want a friend that he would go out walking the streets at night hoping to find someone who truly wanted to be his friend simply for who he was as a human being…

I think we all have an innate desire to be loved, accepted, cared about, for who we are. To have others care about us as human beings, to want to know what’s going on in our lives, to truly care.  For Michael I am sure this was much more intense. He NEVER knew if someone truly loved him for himself, if they just loved the public personna or if they were just there for the ride (either for their own fame or for money).

I know sometimes, to some who hear the story, it might sound strange that he would feel desperate enough to go out into the streets just looking for a true friend…someone he could talk to. But, I understand it and I think some of you do as well.  It’s a familiar loneliness…pain of not being understood or feeling as if others don’t really care about who you are as a person, but rather see you either as a caricature or someone to be dismissed, attacked or ignored. Someone devoid of feelings.  Someone that so many, in Michael’s case, felt wasn’t real, but rather some kind of figure of the imagination.

I think we’ve all been in situations where we didn’t feel truly accepted or cared about, even at times by people that we felt SHOULD care…the ones we felt were closest to us.

Personally, I’ve gone to many a function only to leave questioning if the people who were there, people I had shown so much care and love to over the years, really truly cared about who I was as a person, or cared about anything that went on in my own life. It always amazes me how little love and true caring some can show. There are, unfortunately, many who turn to selfishness or let jealousy take over and act from that, rather than from a place of love, and truth.

Sometimes, if we allow it, and sometimes we do because we don’t know how else to deal with it, we can be made to feel invisible. Jealousy, indifference, someone’s own personal struggles, all affect the way they perceive us and the way that they treat us.  It’s my feeling that at times, Michael felt “invisible”. He was a global presence, nearly everyone knew who Michael Jackson was…or, did they, really?

Nearly everyone knew the public presence, but the private person became shrouded in mystery due to a desire for some much-needed privacy amidst so much fame.  Who could blame him?  He had been on the stage since a tender young age, exposed to so much, so early, could not leave his home without being mobbed and people, even well-meaning, wanting something from him (his time, to speak with him, to see him, an autograph, a hug).

Add to that a desire to feel connection with others (which we all have and we all suffer when we don’t have that…and yet for Michael, how could he have that on the human level that was so needed when, due to fame and celebrity that had reached heights before nearly unheard of, it was hard to truly connect and be able to fully trust that the connection was for pure reasons)?

On top of all of this, add the media’s slanderous lies, and you have a very dangerous brew.  Someone trapped by their fame…imprisoned in a way.  The false accusations were absolutely devastating in addition to all else he faced. Taking the one thing he was most passionate about, helping children and loving them in a pure sense, and ripping that to shreds, turning it into something vile and evil that NEVER happened.

The struggle of wanting to be himself and give of himself and his talent and to be “simply Mike” was always being superseded by so much chaos…the chaos of fame, the lies from the media to bring in a quick buck, the struggle for personal space.  He was such a sensitive soul wanting to be loved for who he was and to be able to give what was in his heart, which came out so clearly and can be seen with pristine clarity if we would just look….but each time in doing so, he was at the risk of being exploited, misunderstood or taken advantage of. Jealousy was a major component of this.

The problem with jealousy, especially, is that it ASSUMES how something is with the object of the jealousy. Most times, if people would put themselves in the shoes of the person they are jealous of and who they act out of anger and hate towards, they would run screaming for the hills after just one day of being in that person’s shoes.

People assume that fame, celebrity or being in the pubic eye is glamorous. It’s not. I’ve interviewed enough celebrities to know that it’s not an easy life. Think about how many turn to drugs, alcohol, and other things to fill the void. It’s unnatural to be put in a position on a pedestal. Man was never meant for that.

So many treated Michael either as a god-like figure, an icon, a celebrity, or, on the flipside of that, they treated him as if he was the devil himself having committed heinous acts in their own minds.

Michael himself said:

“I believe in the Bible and I try to follow the Bible. I know I’m an imperfect person… I’m not making myself an angel because I’m not an angel and I’m not a devil either. I try to be the best I can and I try to do what I think is right. It’s that simple…I don’t just pray at night. I pray at different times during the day. Whenever I see something beautiful, I say, “Oh, God, that’s beautiful.” I say little prayers like that all through the day.” ~ 1979 JET Magazine

When you become “public”, you are open for misinterpretation. Michael knew this at the utmost highest level. But so do people like Diane Dimond, Nancy Grace, and others. Don’t let them fool you. They have undoubtedly experienced it themselves. They know it…but they choose to turn a blind eye towards it because for them, hate sells.  They have lost the sensitivity from their souls and the love in their hearts that makes us human.  It’s all they have going for them. If they didn’t hate on Michael, would they even have a career? Doubtful.

Michael simply wanted to be loved for himself…to find people who would care about the precious soul deep inside and not just the “entertainer”. He wanted people to see past the caricature the media had cast upon him. He just simply wanted to be loved for who he truly was, for his true, most basic, most intimate self…and isn’t that what we all want?

Debunking the Demonic Deception, Part 3: Misconceptions About Michael, What’s The Truth?

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What’s the Truth behind Michael Jackson’s skin going from dark to light?  Did he want to be white?

Did Michael Jackson really take drugs or lots of pills?  Was he on prescription medications?  Was he really a drug addict?

Why did Michael Jackson have all of that plastic surgery?  Did he hate himself?  Was there something else behind it?

But wasn’t he just “weird?”  Why did he carry that umbrella and wear the mask?

You’ve Seen All Of The Headlines:  Now, What’s the Truth?


“Wacko Jacko hits a toy store in pyjamas, a surgeon’s mask, a wig and wheelchair”

“He bleached his skin white”

“He was taking hundreds of pills a day!”

“He was so eccentric.  Everything he did, including carrying around an umbrella, was all part of the plan to get attention”

I’m going to stop right here….

Part of that “deception” we’ve been talking about, is all about making you think and feel a certain way about different people in the limelight…to make you view them as weird people that nobody can relate to.  Different than you and I.  To show them in an unfavorable light.

Nobody had that done to them more than Michael Jackson.

Let Me Ask You This…

Had you EVER CONSIDERED WHY?

Why Michael Jackson might have been in a wheelchair?  Used an umbrella? Why he was taking medication?  Why his skin changed?  That there was a very good reason for all of these things?

Most didn’t.  Most just assumed that what they saw and heard on television and on the radio and read in the newspaper and magazines, was the truth.

Problem is….IT WASN’T!

Some reveled in poking fun and talking at length about how “weird and bizarre” Michael Jackson was…it was like a daily dose of entertainment for them…fun at the expense of someone else.  Someone they didn’t know or really know anything about.

If you don’t already, it’s time you knew the truth about Michael Jackson, what he suffered and why what you saw, will make sense after you know the FACTS

What If I Told You…

that there is a legitimate explanation for all of these things, that Michael Jackson went through legitimate physical suffering and illness and that he was indeed telling the TRUTH…. and that what you thought was innocent fun, was really another human’s suffering…both caused by your own selfishness at laughing at him for your own entertainment, and also very real physical suffering Michael Jackson endured, and a myriad of treatments brought on by these ailments…ailments that the press did NOT want you to know about…because by making you think that what you saw, what they showed you, was because Michael was SO WEIRD…they would keep making money…off of YOU!

Understanding, and knowing the TRUTH….makes ALL of the DIFFERENCE!

For instance, DID YOU KNOW…that…

  • Michael did indeed suffer from a disease called Lupus, which is an auto-immune disease, and also a disease/skin condition, called Vitiligo, which destroys the pigment of your skin?

Lupus:

Vitiligo:

‎”Michael Jackson treated everybody equally both in race, color and creed. It was especially annoying for me as a doctor to be treating him for the medical condition, vitiligo , which the media used against him. They might as well have said that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was lazy because he spent most of his adult life in a wheelchair.”

(Patrick Treacy Los Angeles Jan 2011 on receiving a Tribute Dot in Michael Jackson’s heart).

Below, transcripts between an interview done with Larry King and Dr. Arnold Klein

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/08/lkl.01.html

KING: What is vitiligo?

KLEIN: It’s a loss of pigment cells. And the pigment cells, you — for every 36 normal cells in your body, you have one pigment cell pumping pigment into them. Unfortunately, it’s an autoimmune disease and lupus is an autoimmune disease. And they tend to go together, because you make antibodies against your pigment cells.

KING: Did Michael have it?

KLEIN: Absolutely. We biopsied it.

KING: What causes it?

KLEIN: It causes — it’s caused by your immune system and your immune system destroying your pigment cells.

KING: Do black people have it more than white people?

KLEIN: No. But it’s just more visible on black people, because they have a dark skin. The other thing is, it certainly occurs with a family history. And I believe one of Michael’s relatives did, in fact, have vitiligo.

KING: How bad was his?

KLEIN: Oh, his was bad because he began to get a totally speckled look over his body. And he could…

KING: All over his body?

KLEIN: All over his bodybut on his face significantlyon his hands, which were very difficult to treat.

KING: So let’s clear up something. He was not someone desirous of being white?

KLEIN: No. Michael was black. He was very proud of his black heritage. He changed the world for black people. We now have a black president.

KING: So how do you treat vitiligo?

KLEIN: Well, I mean there’s certain treatments. You have one choice where you can use certain drugs called (INAUDIBLE) and ultraviolet light treatments to try to make the white spots turn dark or – his became so severe, that the easier way is to use certain creams that will make the dark spots turn light so you can even out the pigments totally.

KING: So your decision there was he would go light?

KLEIN: Well, yes, that’s ultimately what the decision had to be, because there was too much vitiligo to deal with and…

KING: Otherwise, he would have looked ridiculous?

KLEIN: Well, you can’t — he would have to wear heavy, heavy makeup on stage, which would be ridiculous. And he couldn’t really go out in public without looking terribly peculiar.

Source:  http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/lupus-vitiligo-plastic-surgery-and-the-concept-of-self-hatred-did-michael-jackson-want-to-go-white/comment-page-2/#comment-13635

KING: Doctor, how did you first meet Michael?

DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON’S DERMATOLOGIST: I met Michael because someone had brought him into my office. And they walked into the room with Michael. And I looked one — took one look at him and I said you have lupus erythematosus. Now, this was a long word.

KING: Lupus?

KLEIN: Lupus, yes. I mean, because he had red — a butterfly rash and he also had severe crusting you could see on the anterior portion of his scalp. I mean I always am very visual. I’m a person who would look at the lips of Mona Lisa and not see her smile. I would see the lips.

KING: Was he there because of that condition?

KLEIN: He was there only because a very close friend of his had told him to come see me about the problems he had with his skin. Because he was — he had severe acne, which many people…

KING: Oh, he did?

KLEIN: Yes, he did. And many people made fun of him. He used to remember trying to clean it off and he’d gone to these doctors that really hurt him very much. And he was exquisitely sensitive to pain.

So he walked into my office. He had several things wrong with his skin. So I said — and you have thick crusting of your scalp and you have some hair loss.

He says, well, how do you know this?

I said, because it’s the natural course of lupus.

So I then did a biopsy. I diagnosed lupus. And then our relationship went from there.

And also this….Did you know that much of what you saw, including some of the plastic surgery, was due to these conditions?

DR. STRICK:  Michael had a disease vitiligo in which the pigment is lost and attempts had been made to bring that pigment back which had been unsuccessful so he tried to bleach it out so it would be one colour. Lupus is also an autoimmune disease and he also had skin involvement, which had destroyed part of the skin of his nose and his nasal surgeries and all were really reconstructiveto try and look normal.

QUESTION:    So all these nose reconstructions you’re saying was as a result of him treating his lupus?

DR. STRICK:   The first one was to try and reconstruct from some scar tissue and obstruction that had happened with the skin there. It didn’t work out very well and all subsequent attempts were to make it right. I think he was trying to look like a normal guy as best as that he could.”

  • Did you know that vitiligo has emotional consequences for many of it’s victims?

Vitiligo is an important skin disease having major impact on quality of life of patients, many of whom feel distressed and stigmatized by their condition. Society greets vitiligo patients in much the same way as it does any one else who appears to be different. They are stared at or subjected to whispered comments, antagonism, insult or isolation. The chronic nature of disease, long term treatment, lack of uniform effective therapy and unpredictable course of disease is usually very demoralizing for patients suffering from vitiligo. It is important to recognize and deal with psychological components of this disease to improve their quality of life and to obtain a better treatment response.

Source:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC269995/

  • Did you know that after Michael Jackson suffered a scalp burn during the filming of a Pepsi commercial, that he was in intense pain from the burn and also from treatments that were being used to help treat the burn and scar, which included balloon implants under the skin to stretch the skin enough so that the scar tissue could be cut out, which caused excruciating pain?  That this is why he developed an addiction to painkillers, which, he kicked?
  • That the hair loss he suffered was due to both the lupus, the vitiligo and the scalp burn as well?
  • Did you realize that people with lupus are told to stay out of the sun, that their skin is extra sensitive to it?  They have an actual “intolerance” to the sun.
  • Did you also know that this is also a must for someone with vitiligo (staying out of the sun) because with loss of the melanocytes (cells that give your skin pigment), you have no natural protection against skin cancer?)  THIS is why Michael Jackson carried an umbrella wherever he went!
  • Did you know that Michael Jackson’s autopsy showed that there were NO NARCOTICS in his system and no organ damage that would have been evident in someone having abused drugs and/or alcohol for a long period of time?  The ONLY medications found on Michael were the meds that Dr. Murray gave him that night, and the resuscitative drugs used!
To see this evidence for yourself:
Article on the autopsy
Official Autopsy Report
  • Did you know that though Michael was originally diagnosed with Discoid Lupus, which mainly affects the skin, and that at times, Discoid Lupus can progress to Systemic Lupus, which affects the body?  Some feel that he had developed Systemic Lupus.  You will read more about that in the article I have linked below.
As a sidenote…my paternal grandmother had systemic lupus, so I have seen first-hand the suffering of this disease…the pain that accompanies it and at times, the disability.
  • Did you know that Michael suffered from a condition known as “Dancer’s Feet” which makes the feet very painful and that he also was diagnosed with  arthritis of the lumbar spine (very painful for a dancer and performer) and that either of those conditions, along with a possible lupus flare-up, could have been reasons you saw him in a wheelchair?
  • Outside of these medical reasons for wheelchair, wrapped feet at times, masks and umbrellas, etc., can you also imagine what this man must have gone through, just how MUCH he was subjected to in his lifetime…dealing with 2 auto-immune diseases for certain all the while being a global celebrity who never got his privacy, had false allegations come at him, all the while being lied about continually by the press?
How would you handle that?  COULD YOU handle that?  If you were in his position, having to deal with all of that, how would you feel?

Like the old Indian proverb says, do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins. Most people don’t know me , that is why they write such things in which most is not true. I cry very,very often because it hurts and I worry about the children. All my children all over the world. i live for them. If a man could say nothing against a character what he can prove, his story could not be written. Animals strike not from malice, but because they want to live, it is the same with those who want to criticise, they desire our blood, not our pain. But still i must achieve . I must seek Truth in all things. I must endure for the power I was sent forth , for the world, for the children. But have mercy , for I’ve been bleeding a long time now. M.J.  “

There is so much more to know.  A link below to an article you really MUST read, in addition to what is coming up in the last 2 parts of this 5-part blog series….stay tuned to the last 2 parts of this blog series where we will discover:
  • Accusations about how Michael received his songs and the accusations about lyrics of his songs
  • More in-depth information on vitiligo, including the tie in between vitiligo, past victims and Michael Jackson
  • How to decipher the spirits
  • The stories circulating about Michael and hell…and lots more.

Here, straight from the Vindicate MJ blog…something that hits right to the heart of the matter:

Will it be a decent question to ask now how many plastic surgeries Michael underwent after we learned about a double operation on his broken nose, scars from a burn on his scalp, texture expanders under his skin, cutting out balding spots in his hair, treating a butterfly rash on his face and taking away the thick crust from his head?

Will it be still okay to make fun of his nose now that we know that lupus could have resulted in a necrosis of his skin and probably cartilage which is probably why he often appeared in public with a tape on his nose?

Should we still doubt that by the year 2003 when Michael was interviewed by Bashir the most number of his cosmetic surgeries had been two or probably three – while the rest of them were devoted to minimising the damage done by the accident, lupus and the very limited number of  plastic operations proper he really had?

Please Read the following article and source of the above quote, which will go into further detail on all of this, including: 


  • How plastic surgery and lupus are connected and also the side effects of that


  • Michael beating his addiction to Morphine and prescription drugs and the song “Morphine” and it’s meaning
  • Lots of detail on the Vitiligo and Lupus conditions that Michael suffered and lots more.
A MUST READ:

Vindicate MJ Blog: Lupus, Vitiligo, Plastic Surgery and the concept of ‘self-hatred’. Did Michael Jackson want to go white?

Debunking the Demonic Deception…Michael Jackson and the Truth: Part 2

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This is Part 2 of this multiple series blog.  If you missed Part 1, you can read it HERE

Have you ever wondered what really went on in the 1993 case and the 2005 case?

If you still think Michael Jackson could be, or is, guilty of the accusations that came against him, I ask that you especially read Part 2 as this will go into much depth and with lots of information to help you explore and learn what really happened in these cases.

How Jordie Chandler could have described Michael Jackson’s private parts with such accuracy? (you may be shocked to find out that he DID NOT describe them with any accuracy and his accusations/descriptions did NOT fit)

Why several jurors changed their minds about his innocence after the trial?

You will find out the TRUTH about this and much more in this 2nd part in this blog series.

In Part 2, we will cover:

  • The jurors who changed their minds after the trial and the truth behind that
  • William Wagener’s spiritual experience outside the gates of Neverland Ranch in 2005
  • Looking back at the trial and the Jackson Timeline…what happened when…when did the supposed accusations take place…how did the stories change?
  • Michael Jackson’s demeanor during his arrest and during the trial and what that says about him spiritually
  • Jordie Chandler’s description and how he got it all wrong
  • Access and links to court transcripts and other important documents so that you can learn the truth about what happened and proof that Michael Jackson was indeed, innocent
HERE WE GO….

BUT….WAIT!  what about the 2 jury members who changed their stories afterwards and said they thought he was guilty?

Let’s just see about that….shall we?

Members of the jury who acquitted Michael Jackson were interviewed here in the video below, on “Good Morning America”.  You’ll note that one of the jurors, Ellie Cook, who you will see also in a separate video below, where she states that she was “bullied” into the verdict and claims she kept stating emphatically to the other jurors that she believed that Michael Jackson was guilty the entire period of the trial, stating nothing of the sort in this “Good Morning America” video, and in fact, is agreeing with her fellow jurors here.  She agreed to be interviewed for this show (Good Morning America) and is seated right next to the jury foreman who she claims was so mean to her and bullied her.  She does not appear uncomfortable at all to be seated next to him.

Diane Sawyer asks “Any second thoughts?  Any of you?  She is seen shaking her head no and saying audibly “no”.  She is even speaking up against the mother (Janet Arvizo) here.  Ellie here is agreeing with all of the other jurors and participating with them!  She doesn’t seem to be fearful of any of them at all!  There is no hostility apparent.

Note that Sawyer asks them if they felt that the son, Gavin Arvizo was lying, and she again shakes her head and emphatically says “yes!”  Ellie continues to laugh with the other jurors and agree with them.

Also, please note that Ellie is asked by Diane Sawyer about a quote she gave about her having more “understanding” because of something that happened in her own family.  She had a grandson that “flashed” and so, was charged with a felony sex offense.

Ellie is also seen here laughing along with the other jurors about if things got out of hand.  This is not a nervous laugh, not a fearful laugh, but a laugh that is in comraderie with her fellow jurors here.

Now, let’s compare and contrast:  Below, this SAME juror, now going by Eleanor Cook (Ellie) is emphatically stating that she believed Michael Jackson was guilty the entire trial and was “bullied” into acquitting him.  Fellow juror Ray Hultman goes along with this story here…yet, she acted COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in the “Good Morning America” interview above and is seen stating that she NEVER had any doubts and goes along with all of the other jurors, even sitting next to the man whom she claims in this interview, “bullied” her and threatened to have her thrown off the jury if she didn’t agree with their innocent verdict.  She is not uncomfortable with anyone at all in the “Good Morning America” television interview.  So what happened?

Let me ask you this….compare her behavior above with that below.  Why the huge change?  Who offered her money to change her story for a bigger “story” :’/

Want to know who?  Keep reading!

So, why did those 2 jurors change their story and who paid them to do so?

This from blogger David Edwards:

“The media (paid Cook and Hultman to change their stories…for MONEY)! They offered ALL of the jurors money to say MJ was guilty, but they were the only 2 who took the bait! They signed book deals, but lost it when their manuscript was plagiarized from Maureen Orth’s Vanity Fair articles! And guess who was writing their manuscript? Stacy Brown!!! The same rat who wrote “The Man Behind The Mask” with Bob Jones!  (Juror) Ray Hultman (who you see in the video above co-conspirating with Ellie Cook) SUED to get out of his book deal, and the lawsuit was settled out of court, and the book deal fell flat.  He didn’t get a dime!”

This was another sad attempt on the media’s part to falsify and sensationalize a story in order to continue to make money.

The truth is, these 2 jurors were, to put it bluntly, liars.  They changed their story, sold their soul and LIED for the same reasons so many others do…MONEY.  In fact, it has been reported that Cook had already forged a book deal BEFORE the trial even started!

It is clearly evident when you compare and contrast the 2 completely opposite stories shared above.  You can clearly see from Ms. Cook’s demeanor on the “Good Morning America” set that she is enjoying the interview and the time with her fellow jurors, and, she is stating, for the camera, without hesitation, that she had no regrets or second thoughts about Michael Jackson’s innocence.  However, if you need even more proof, please read the following well-researched articles:

David Edwards Clearly Shows the Fallacies Regarding Jurors Who Changed Their Minds

What Happened With Some of the Jurors After the 2005 Michael Jackson Trial by Helena of the Vindicate MJ blog

This piece above also includes transcript of the interview Cook and Hultman did with Rita Cosby for MSNBC and also, an interview done with Larry King…VERY interesting to hear what Cook and Hultman both said in THIS interview, before they both took offers for book deals and completely changed their stories!

Here, some excerpts from Cook and Hultman from the Larry King interview:

KING: Are you going to write a separate book?

COOK: Yes, I’m writing a book. I’m with Larry Garrison (ph) of Silver Creek Enterprises. And my granddaughter is my agent. So we — I worked yesterday.

KING: Why, Ellie? Why the need to write a book?

COOK: I don’t know that I need to write a book, as my granddaughter has said from the beginning, write a book. And I’m — what I’m really writing about is the bonding of this jury and the nice people I’m with. Because I’ve said that’s to me more important.

KING: What about the mother ticked you off so much?

COOK: Well, she was just downright rude to us as far as I’m concerned. And I think she set her son up. I think she’s probably the poorest excuse for a mother I’ve ever known.

Compare and contrast this with what Cook told Rita Cosby in an interview reported and aired by the Associated Press on August 10th, 2005 (the 2nd of the juror interviews you viewed in video form above):

Eleanor Cook: [During the deliberations] I said he was guilty and I said it in a big way. They came up after me with a vengeance. I really got attacked.

Rita Cosby: How so?

Cook: ‘I didn’t understand’, ‘I didn’t know’, ‘I was too old’…

R. Cosby: How did the foreman [Paul Rodriguez] threaten you?

Cook: If I don’t change my mind, or go with the group, or be more understanding, he’ll have to notify the bailiff, the bailiff will notify the judge, and the judge will have me removed….

R.Cosby: How angry were you at the way you were treated by other jurors?

Ray Hultman: The fact that got me the most was that people could not take those blinds off long enough to really look at all the evidence that was there.

R.Cosby: What happened that day when the verdict came down? How bad was the air?

Cook: The air reeked of hatred. People were angry and I had never been in an atmosphere like that before. I just thought that they could turn on me any minute and there wasn’t anything I could do about it.

R.Cosby: Did you tell anyone how bad it was for you?

Cook: I called my daughter and she was very comforting. She said, Mother, you’ve done right, your conscience is clear, you’re a strong lady and you can handle it, you can handle them.

R.Cosby: But you didn’t?

Cook: I didn’t. I caved in.

So, on June 23rd, 2005, Cook spoke with Larry King and mentioned she was writing a book, that her granddaughter had encouraged her to do so, and that the book was about the bonding of the jury and the nice people she was with.  Shortly after, she changed her entire story and said she felt threatened on that jury, that the hate was palpable on vindication day, that she had been “bullied” by other members of the jury.  It was a complete change of story!

“…And I’m — what I’m really writing about is the bonding of this jury and the nice people I’m with. Because I’ve said that’s to me more important.”

ELLIE COOK, MICHAEL JACKSON JUROR #5: Yes, sir.

KING: And you were the one who got ticked off by the mother, right?

COOK: Oh, big time. Big time.

KING: I’ll get to that. But what was it like to serve?

COOK: What was it like to serve? It was an eye-opener. I really like our country and I like the fact that we do serve. And this is such a diverse group of people. It really — it was a great experience.

KING: Would you say it was a hard-working jury?

COOK: Yes, oh, definitely. Definitely. I really do.

Then, just 2 months later, she says this:

Eleanor Cook: [During the deliberations] I said he was guilty and I said it in a big way. They came up after me with a vengeance. I really got attacked.

So, right after all of this happened, that very same month when the jury was interviewed on Larry King Live, Eleanor (Ellie) states that she’s writing a book about the bonding of the jury and the nice people she’s with and how serving on the jury was a great experience, but just 2 months later she claims these people who she said she bonded with and who were so nice that she was going to write a book about the experience, had really came after her with a vengeance, and that she got attacked and was bullied and had caved into the pressure and agreed to the not guilty?  How about her demeanor on Good Morning America, joking around and being completely comfortable with the jurors she was on there with, including jury foreman Paul Rodriguez, whom she claims bullied her!  Come on now!  I wasn’t born yesterday!  As my Dad would say.  I doubt any of you were either.

Now, on to Hultman….

HULTMAN: Well, I think the prosecution did everything they could possibly do with this case. I think the problem was the family. But as the prosecutor would tell you, they don’t pick their victims is what they said. And in this case, the accuser and his family had some real credibility problems. And that was kind of the key to the whole issue.

KING: So even though you thought he may have been in the past a predator, they didn’t prove it in this case.

HULTMAN: That’s right. And the evidence from the 1993-94 incident was allowed to come into the case only for that purpose. Which was to provide either evidence that he showed a pattern for doing this kind of thing or he didn’t. And then you could use that as you would…

KING: And you didn’t see that as a pattern.

HULTMAN: I saw it as a pattern.

KING: But…

HULTMAN: But there wasn’t enough evidence to prove he had molested the accuser in this case.

One thing to note here is that Hultman is saying he saw it as a pattern (remember that this was the first case ever, to my knowledge, that prior “accusations”, not a prior conviction, prior “accusations” were allowed to be brought in as evidence.

So again, just 2 months after this interview, Hultman states that he BELIEVED the accuser, that he believed the accuser’s story of being molested…and yet, above, 2 months earlier, he states that the accuser and his family had some real credibility problems.  So I ask…if someone has credibility problems (lack of credibility means, you are not credible, not trustworthy), how can you believe someone who lacks credibility? How does someone who, during the trial and right afterwards, you felt was not trustworthy, not credible, suddenly become believable 2 months later when you are offered a book deal???

I’ve served on a jury before and I will tell you, you develop some very strong feelings about the case that are not easily swayed.  It’s one thing to feel from the get-go that you might have changed your opinion to go along with the rest of the jury, however, it’s an entirely different thing to agree and state that you had no doubts and then come out months later and suddenly state that you had doubts all along and were bullied into your decision.

Hultman also issues this statement after Michael’s passing:

Fellow Jackson juror Ray Hultman issued this statement on the pop star’s death:

“I offer my sympathies to Michael Jackson’s family and hope God will give them strength during this time. Michael Jackson was undeniably a great entertainer and it’s sad that much of his talents and energy in later life was consumed by having to defend some poor personal choices.”

He of course still kept some negative going, turning what should have been a positive, heartfelt statement to the family, into something where he mentions “poor personal choices”.

Source:  http://www.kcoy.com/story/10599421/attorney-jurors-react-to-michael-jacksons-death?redirected=true

In the interview that Hultman and Cook did with Cosby, Cook states the following:

Cook: The air reeked of hatred. People were angry and I had never been in an atmosphere like that before. I just thought that they could turn on me any minute and there wasn’t anything I could do about it.

Cook states in this interview done in August 2005 that the air reeked of hatred and that “they” could turn on me any minute and there wasn’t anything I could do about it.  Yet, she states emphatically in the above interviews on both Good Morning America and Larry King Live that serving on the jury was a great experience, she speaks of the bond they all developed and how she is writing a book about that, and how friendly the people were and, she appears VERY comfortable with her fellow jurors on the Good Morning America set….not at all fearful as one would be if they felt a group of people might turn on them and bullied them into a decision.

Here are some excerpts of interviews given by Juror Susan Drake that you might find interesting:

KING: Was there a chance you would have convicted anything guilty, Susan, on one of the minor counts?

DRAKE: Nothing. I went in there with a courage to convict a celebrity. Because I really believe in doing what is right. And witness after witness I was more convinced of the innocence, because of the motivations of financial gain and revenge, it was just amazing the way it was laid out.

And here is Drake’s quote to NY Post “columnist” Andrea Peyser, who wrote the disgusting “Freak of the Week” article earlier this year, which I won’t even link to because it’s a waste of time for you to read it! Unfortunately, I had to use Diane Dimond’s book as a source for this quote. (From David Edwards)  From page 313:

Drake would later tell New York Post columnist Andrea Peyser that she had been totally convinced that Michael Jackson was blameless. “I’m adamant,” she was quoted as saying, “I think he’s not guilty and I think he’s innocent.”

12. If you could tell Mr. Tom Stendon one thing, what would that be?

I would tell him that during the trial, it clearly came through to us that you had an agenda, to take down a man, a human being, and it didn’t work.

Source:   David Edwards’ Fact Checking the 2005 case blog

Jonna M. Spilbor of Findlaw.com takes these jury members to task in her column HERE

Below, some excerpts from this column:

“….Less than two months after clearing Michael Jackson of all charges, jurors Ray Hultman and Eleanor Cook have come forward publicly to announce they made a mistake. In their words, they feel Jackson’s jury “let a pedophile go.”

Cook has reported being “bullied” into her not-guilty verdicts – all fourteen of them.

Hultman claims his conscience has gotten the better of him. At least, so says his publisher.

The Case of the Michael Jackson Jurors: Why Did They Come Forward Now?

Looking at jurors Hultman and Cook, I asked myself this: Why come forward now? For that matter, why come forward at all? If they cannot change their verdict (and they can’t), and therefore cannot change the outcome of the case, why speak out?

The answer, sadly, requires little imagination. Obviously, something happened in between what appeared to be an unwavering “not guilty” verdict following several days of deliberation, and August 8th, when they appeared together – on a primetime cable news show – to announce their about-face.

What was it? Did these two people happen to show up at some “Jurors Anonymous” meeting, only to learn the Step Six is admitting when you’ve rendered the wrong decision? Or, were they approached with the prospect of a book and movie deal which (wink, wink) just might make them a whole lot richer if there were (hint, hint) a controversy of sorts surrounding the verdict?

I can’t truly know these jurors’ motivations, but I can hazard a guess based on the timing of events, and the statements they’ve publicly made. I’m putting my money on the book and movie deal because, simply, the revelations of jurors Hultman and Cook coincide with the announcement of their individual books deals and combined television project.

Each juror will be coming out with his or her own book, and both, not surprisingly, will be published by the same publisher. Hultman’s is to be entitled, “The Deliberator”, while the title of Cook’s tell-all is to be, “Guilty As Sin, Free As A Bird.” I imagine that books entitled “Yup, Like We Said, Still Not Guilty” would be a lot less saleable.

How The Jackson Jurors Broke the Law: They Were Supposed to Wait Ninety Days

In California, Penal Code section 1122 states, in part: “After the jury has been sworn and before the people’s opening address, the court shall instruct the jury…that prior to, and within 90 days of, discharge, they shall not request, accept, agree to accept, or discuss with any person receiving or accepting, any payment or benefit in consideration for supplying any information concerning the trial; and that they shall promptly report to the court any incident within their knowledge involving an attempt by any person to improperly influence any member of the jury.” (Emphasis added.)

This is California’s version, but most states, it turns out, have similar statutes – imposing moratoria, but not forbidding jury book and movie deals.

Looking at the calendar, it has not been 90 days since Jackson’s jury was discharged. Clearly, the pair is in violation of the statute — a statute punishable by contempt of court.

Last but not least….a press release for Aphrodite Jones’ book “MJ Conspiracy”, according to blogger David Edwards, where she mentions how other jurors were ALSO offered book deals to lie and say MJ was guilty, but they turned them down due to their integrity. They called Ray and Eleanor “traitors”:

Source:  http://www.themjifc.com/forum/innocent/12547-aphrodite-jones-thomas-mesereau-michaels-attorney.html 

In 2005 Aphrodite Jones was one of only two authors granted access to every day of the Michael Jackson trial. With seven New York Times bestsellers under her belt, her book looked set to fly off of shelves when it hit stores.

But when Jones came to write her book she hit wall after her wall. As one of the only journalists willing to admit that Jackson’s 2005 trial had proven his innocence once and for all, Jones found that publishing houses were unwilling to give her a deal.

Thomas Mesereau, Jackson’s defense lawyer, encountered the same problem. After the trial almost every major publishing house in the US approached him with lucrative book deals. When he maintained that Jackson was truly innocent and he wouldn’t write anything to the contrary, every publishing house retracted its offer.

Jurors were offered book deals too. Two jurors claimed after the trial that they really thought Jackson was guilty, but only after they had signed six figure book deals. Other jurors claimed that they had been offered identical deals by the same publishing companies – but only if they too would change their opinion from innocent to guilty, casting enormous doubt over the sincerity of both rogue jurors’ u-turns.

One juror, Ray Hultman, lost his publishing deal after it was revealed that his manuscript included portions plagiarised from an inaccurate Vanity Fair article. These included allegations that the former juror couldn’t possibly verify, such as claims that Jackson had a detachable nose.

The book was co-written by Stacy Brown, a serial Jackson detractor who also co-wrote a book about the star with Bob Jones, Jackson’s former aide. Jones was forced to admit on the stand in 2005 that portions of his book ‘The Man Behind The Mask’ had been fabricated by Brown in order to boost sales.

Hultman’s crediblity was further damaged when it was revealed that after the verdict he had commented to one reporter, “The evidence just wasn’t there. We couldn’t have gone any other way.” A strange comment from a man who would later insist that Jackson had been guilty.

The second juror, Eleanor Cook, also never published her book. Cook’s granddaughter caused controversy when she announced during jury deliberations that the juror had already signed a book deal – and had agreed to it in principle before the trial had even begun. Ghostwriter Ernie Cariwel admitted on June 7th 2005 – five days before the verdict was reached in Jackson’s trial – that he had already begun writing the book despite never having spoken to Cook.

Fellow jurors slammed the pair two months after the verdict, calling them ‘traitors’ and claiming that their allegations were ‘ridiculous’.

As the publishing industry set about convincing the world that Jackson was guilty – printing books such as ‘Be Careful Who You Love’ by Diane Dimond, an author who has claimed that her sole aim in life is to destroy Michael Jackson and who writer Ishmael Reed once described as a ‘Jackson stalker’ – Jones began conducting deep research. Obtaining a special court order from Judge Rodney Melville, who presided over Jackson’s trial, she was given access to all of the evidence and transcripts related to the case.

It took Jones days just to photocopy all of the court transcripts and a further six months to read them. The wealth of information needed for the book forced her to invest in a second computer. She used one to store all of her research and the other to store her writing. It took her a further six months to finish the manuscript

‘Michael Jackson Conspiracy’ was explosive. Not only did it reveal all of the exculpatory evidence and testimony which the media had failed to present to the public, it also exposed deliberate media bias against Jackson and explained the motives behind it. The blurb described the book as follows:

“…A scathing indictment against the media for conspiring to distort, dehumanise and destroy Michael Jackson… Jones argues convincingly that the case against Jackson amounted to nothing more than a media made, tax paid scandal, and she makes an impassioned to the public at large to think critically about, question the integrity of and demand truth in ‘the news’.”

Despite its sensational contents and in spite of her seven previous bestsellers, Jones was unable to convince any major publishing house to print the book. She was forced to self publish.

When I interviewed Aphrodite Jones shortly after the book’s release she told me that she intended to make a documentary about Jackson’s trial, describing her vision for a ‘TV version of the book.’ Yesterday she emailed to tell me that the project is moving forward.

“The one hour docu-show I did on Michael Jackson will air during my new series called ‘True Crime’,” she said. “It will begin in April 2010 on a new Discovery channel called Investigation Discovery (ID).”

The hour-long film will cover Jackson’s 2005 trial, the media falsehoods which surrounded it and why Jackson ‘died with a broken heart’ after being ‘divorced by America’. Jones insists that the 2005 trial proved Jackson’s innocence and says the documentary will show this.

http://www.mj-777.com/?p=4148

I want you to think about something here.without this information….without these facts and truth, how easy would it have been to just simply believe the MSNBC interview with these 2 jurors if this is all you had seen?

Can you see how easily the media and the way they present information to you, can sway your opinion?  Would you have just taken it as fact, disgusted that Michael Jackson had “gotten away with it because he was a celebrity” and continued to spread the lies that they so convincingly pulled the wool over so many of your eyes with?  How many of you did that?  Yep, that’s what I thought.  THIS is exactly why we have to be aware and pay attention!

If you want to know more about the media’ impact on your thinking, please read this BLOG POST

The Truth remains that Michael Jackson was VINDICATED on all 14 charges (10 counts and 4 lesser counts)…by a jury of his peers, with 5 months of testimony and evidence or lack thereof, to back up their decision.

Judge Melville’s last words before he left the courtroom:

“Mr. Jackson, your bail is exonerated, and you are released.”

Michael Jackson leaves the courthouse on June 13th, also known as “Vindication Day”.  Jackson expressed little visible emotion (as we later found out he was emotionally exhausted from the trial and according to statements made by sister LaToya, Michael also had an intense fear that he would be assassinated that day).

“Justice was done.  The man’s innocent.  He always was.”

Attorney Tom Mesereau

Looking Back…

Below…the video showing the verdicts being read, Michael and his family and lawyers leaving the courtroom and Mr. Mesereau’s unforgettable words:

“Justice was done.  The man’s innocent.  He always was.”

Let it also be known, that both of his attorneys, Susan Yu and Tom Mesereau, stayed in contact with Michael Jackson even after his trial.  They truly believed in his innocence and still do.

http://reflectionsonthedance.blogspot.com/2011/06/tom-mesereau-continues-to-defend.html  

Live verdicts read

God Has Called Many In Regards to The Truth About Michael:

PLEASE listen to the following audio…it’s a small excerpt of an  interview between TV Host William Wagener and radio show how Catherine Gross on her blogtalk radio show, “A Place In Your Heart”.

This gave me chills….as I put this on the blog today, Wednesday, July 20th, this is the first time I have ever heard it and I’m amazed….as I now am beginning to realize more and more how many people God has called into this fight for truth, including myself, and how God truly did claim Michael as his own.  This is the exact same feeling I have had all this time!  This is continued confirmation to me…I too felt God was saying to me “This is my child.  I want the truth to be known about him.  He was innocent.  He never did these things”.

This is what William claims the Holy Spirit spoke to him while he prayed in front of the gates at Neverland:

“Michael Jackson is completely innocent of all these charges.  Even though he’s not a perfect human being,  he will be found not guilty on all 10 charges, because, in fact, he IS innocent,” and God had said to me…”Michael Jackson is mine.  He belongs to me and I will take him, but first he will be found Not Guilty of all these charges and now I want you William Wagener, to go proclaim it to your church.  Not on television, but to the church you go to.”

William Wagener Michael Jackson is Completely Innocent

“It wasn’t a fair trial.  It was an inquisition.  The whole point of this trial was to financially damage Michael, to bring him to great depression, to end his career and thereby, end his influence for peace in the world.”

William Wagener speaks to Catherine Gross on her radio show, “A Place In Your Heart”.

I found it highly interesting and of special note that William felt God asked him to first proclaim this message to his own church, instead of on television (as Wagener is a television host).  Why do I believe that God asked William to do this?

The Church & Michael Jackson:

The church was, and continues to be, some of the biggest critics of Michael.  Yet, most know nothing about him.  About who he really was.  They judge, like the public, on hearsay, on what the media showed them, despite that God asks us to seek truth in all things:

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:21

The very people who are to welcome and minister to sinners, the lost, those in need, turned their backs on Michael Jackson because instead of seeking truth and relying on God, they rely on man’s words via the media.  We have failed as a church, as the people of God.  I believe that this is one of the biggest lessons of our time.  A lesson directly from God, for the church, for all people….a lesson about how relying on our own selfish wills and selfish desires to put others down so that we can raise ourselves up artificially, while using hatred against our brother to do so.  The very same people who emphatically state that we are to be in this world, not of it, participate in the very things of this world….by believing and spreading lies, judging and listening to hearsay.  It reminds me of the scripture of seeing the speck in your brother’s eye while ignoring the log in your own

I have many times thought that if Jesus Christ were walking this earth today, most would shun him, turn their backs on him and wouldn’t even allow him into their pristine churches.  We, as a church, are failing in this respect.  We must do better.  Don’t get me wrong.  The church is incredibly important.  God’s church. But as pillars of that church, we must all strive to do better and to listen to what God asks of us…we have become apathetic and complacent.

For those in the public and the church, my advice is to spend a few hours on the Reflections on the Dance website, after reading this blog, and then tell me your thoughts.  Learn the truth.  Seek truth out as God calls us to do.  Don’t judge a man by hearsay…we are to treat others as we ourselves want to be treated.

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” ~ Matthew 7:12

Would we want others judging us by hearsay?  NO, of course not!  Then we MUST NOT do that to anyone else, and that includes…Michael Jackson!

Michael Jackson exhibited Christ-like qualities…Just as we are all asked to do:

The surrender and arrest of Michael Jackson is reminiscent of Jesus Christ’s in many ways.  Jesus too, willfully submitted to the authorities.  He knew that this was part of what he had to go through to accomplish God’s mission for him…the salvation of mankind.

Likewise, just as Michael has always stated, in that he looked to Jesus as a role model and read the Bible daily…Michael submitted to authorities peacefully, despite how anxious, fearful, outraged and completely distraught and scared he must have felt.  Michael too knew that this was something he had to go through in accordance with the mission he had been given.

“THIS WAS WRITTEN FOR ME IN THE BOOKS. I HAVE PROVEN MY PART. NOW GOD WILL BE THEIR JUDGE” Michael Jackson said on the evil do-ers who lied, cheated and betrayed him.

“I BELIEVE GOD WAS HIS GUIDE, THAT IS HOW HE LIVED AND COPED IN THIS CRUEL WORLD” 
Taymoor Marmarchi 
Worked on humanitarian projects for Michael Jackson 

Evil basks in the glory of the evil deed.  Michael instead, conducted himself with a conduct that God asks us to…respect, humility, faith.

Guilt runs and hides.  Evil rejoices in evil.  Innocence faces the trials head on.  You’ll notice that Michael didn’t run.  He faced this head-on and with a peacefulness in his spirit and with dignity.  After the trial was over, Tom Mesereau stated that he thanked his counsel and family and thanked God.  Susan Yu, in an interview done, stated that Michael would thank his attorneys and all those involved in helping him, DAILY!  He never acted up or shouted out in court (Aphrodite Jones said that of all the trials she had covered where someone was being accused of something so serious, this was not usually the case).  When the jury would come in, Michael, would, according to Aphrodite, look at them and give them the prayer hands in a head bowing motion.

“Not only am I presumed to be innocent, I AM innocent, and I know that the truth will be my salvation. I have been strengthened to prove my innocence by my faith in God and the knowledge that I am not fighting this battle alone.”

Michael Jackson, 1994 NAACP Awards.

I will tell you that every time I watch the video of Michael’s arrest and also the subsequent trial videos, it’s with tears in my eyes as to how he was treated as a criminal, handcuffed, and he went peaceably despite the anger and fear he must have felt, despite the injustice and insulting condemnation.  He faced this with what can only be described as a Christ-like attitude.  It is VERY easy to tell what was inside of him…it was not a nephilim spirit…if that were the case, you would not have seen this…you would have seen a very different picture of an out-of-control person pitching a fit and acting out of anger…instead, you saw a peaceful man and that kind of peace comes from none other than God.

If you have never seen the arrest video, I think it’s important that you view it. You can watch it here in Part 1 of this series.

Consider this as well.  These are lyrics that Michael wrote during this time….

If I sail to Acapulco or Cancun Mexico

There the law is waiting for me

and God knows that I’m innocent

If they wont take me in Cairo

Then Lord where will I go

I’ll die a man without a country

and only God knew I was innocent now

These lyrics were written by Michael Jackson while going through his 2005 child molestation trial

Now, I ask you…does this sound to be coming from a heart full of “nephilim” spirit or someone guilty of such heinous acts?  To learn more about Michael being called a nephilum (very serious spiritual accusations, please read Part 1)  OR…is the outcry deep from the soul of someone falsely accused who feels devastated and hopeless in the situation he is in, devastated about being lied about?

Here is proof that the family who accused Jackson in 2003, and who were the prosecution witnesses in Michael’s 2005 trial, completely changed their story:  The sound is very low in this video, so you have to turn your speaker way up or use headphones:

Accusers change their stories

Let’s understand this very thoroughly….The Jackson Timeline from MSNBC:

  • Feb. 6, 2003:  Bashir documentary airs in the US
  • Feb 7:  Alleged molestation begins…the charges against Michael (after the Arvizo’s      changed their story) state the 7 acts of molestation started on this day…the very day AFTER this documentary airs!
  • Feb. 14:  Joint DCFS and LA Police probe begins which is later found to be unfounded and the case is closed.
  • Feb 18:  Santa Barbara investigation begins (due to alleged concerns over what was seen in the Bashir documentary)
  • Feb. 24:  Joint DCFS and LA Police probe ends.  Case closed, unfounded charges.  Below, the statement from the Arvizo family to DCFS during their initial investigation.  Note the date is November 26th, 2003 on the following document…when the Arvizo’s changed their story, they stated that molestation had begun on Feb. 7th, the day after the Bashir documentary aired, and yet, this document, dated Nov. 26th, 2003.  Why is that?

According to David Edwards, it’s due to the fact that November 26th is the day that the document was leaked, even though it had been completed back in February.   The original version didn’t leak.

“Someone from the DFCS leaked it to the press, or to (Mark) Geragos, who leaked it himself (I’m not sure). Larry Feldman considered filing a lawsuit over that leak, but had nooooo problem with whoever leaked Jordan’s declaration from December 1993!” said Edwards.

“I don’t know the exact date, but their investigation was completed at the end of February,” continued Edwards.  “That end date is critical because initially when MJ was arrested, the alleged molestation happened for 2 weeks in February, while the DCFS was doing their investigation! But when MJ was indicted in April 2004, all of a sudden the molestation dates changed to the end of February through March 12(?). Sneddon shifted the dates in order to help secure an indictment, and to cover for the conspiracy and “forcing” them to shoot the rebuttal video.  The molestation originally was said to have occured on February 7-20, and there were 7 lewd acts and 2 counts of plying Gavin with alcohol. But then the dates were changed to Feb. 20  through March 12, 2003, and the lewd acts dropped to 4, while the alcohol charges increased to 4!” stated Edwards.

You can find more in-depth information on this issue HERE

Here is an excerpt from the above source:

Also, keep in mind that at the time of the prosecution’s timeline, there were at least two on-going independent investigations. Also remember prosecutors are claiming an alleged conspiracy started first, then alleged molestation, then the alleged conspiracy continued. According to them, the family was kidnapped specifically so Jackson could molest the accuser. Besides being illogical, it is simply another version of events that have emerged during the course of this “case”. The defense notes this change in their Memorandum in Support of Motion for Mental Examination dated Nov 12 2004. They say:

Somewhere, the perception of the facts in this case was significantly altered, and the Indictment no longer followed the details and chronology recounted by Psychologist Katz. …In view of repeated interviews and witness statements, the change in facts, counts, and dates has created an irreconcilable inconsistency with no explanation. (pg 10)

The defense also highlights what a number of legal analysts and lawyers questioned at the time concerning the “lewd acts” alleged. At first, they were said to have begun Feb 7 2003 according to the initial charges. Again, this Feb 7 date was based on more than two dozen interviews with the family and more than 7 interviews with psychologist Stan Katz. However, these alleged “lewd acts” miraculously jumped to Feb 20, near the end of the month. For the record, the Santa Barbara sheriff’s department reportedly began what ended up to be a 2-month long investigation into this allegation on Feb 16 2003 sparked by a complaint from Carole Lieberman. Yeah, her. The Los Angeles Department of Children & Family Services (DCFS) investigation was sparked by a complaint from a teacher. That DCFS investigation found the allegations to be “unfounded” (see DCFS memo). The family exonerated Jackson of these allegations being made by so-called “concerned citizens” based on nothing but the suspicion of these “concerned citizens”.

Here also is some additional information from David Edwards in regards to these charges being changed:

In the initial felony complaint that was filed on December 18th, 2003, MJ was charged with 7 counts of “lewd acts” upon a child and 2 counts of administering an intoxicant between February 7th and March 10th, 2003, but in the grand jury indictment filed on April 21st, 2004, the dates changed to February 20th and March 12th, 2003, the number of lewd acts decreased to only 4 counts, an “attempted lewd act” charge was added, the counts of administration of an intoxicant increased to 4, and all of a sudden there was a charge of conspiracy to engage in child abduction, false imprisonment, and extortion, with five “co-conspirators” unindicted, despite their refusal of full immunity in exchange for their testimony against MJ! From the “Jackson Charged with Conspiracy to Kidnap” section of the Veritas Project:

http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/part1.html

Another problem with the conspiracy allegation is that although five of Jackson’s associates were allegedly involved in the kidnapping of the family, Jackson is the only one who has been charged with a crime. The five alleged co-conspirators remain un-indicted and have all been offered immunity if they agree to testify against Jackson.

Joe Tacopina, an attorney for one of the accused co-conspirators, insists that his client has rejected Sneddon’s offer of immunity and maintains that the Arvizo family’s claims are ludicrous.

Here is the defense’s motion to have Janet Arvizo subjected to a mental examination, where they described the aforementioned discrepancies between the initial complaint and indictment. From pages 9 through 11 (much of it was redacted, as this motion was attached to a prosecution motion to oppose it):

INTRODUCTION

Mr. Michael Jackson submits this Memorandum in support of his Motion for Mental Examination of Complaining Witnesses. Mr. Jackson’s motion is based on the following grounds:

(1) The prosecution opened the door to permit a mental examination of the complaining witnesses by offering its own mental examination end expert testimony concerning their mental condition, and the complaining witnesses have waived the provisions of Penal Code section 1112 by employing an expert psychologist examine the witnesses’ mental status and provide expert testimony of mental condition;

(2) Mr. Jackson cannot effectively cross-examine and confront prosecution expert witness Psychologist Stanley Katz unless he is permitted equal access to the subject matter of the expert’s mental examination, which are the complaining witnesses, and precluding equal access to the witnesses for examination deprives Mr. Jackson of Ins Sixth .Amendment rights to confront and a cross-examine expert witnesses against him.

A. Statement of the Case

 1. Plaintiff7’s Complaint.

Plaintiff filed this action on December 18, 2003, charging Mr. Jackson with seven (7) counts of Lewd Acts Upon a Child in violation of Penal Code section 288a and two (2) counts of administration an intoxicant to a minor in violation of Penal Code section 222. The Complaint was based on interviews from three (3) complaining witnesses: Janet Arvizo, then age 35, who is the mother of the two (2) minor complaining witnesses, Star Arvizo, then age 14, and Gavin Arvizo, then age 13.

The complaint was based on more than seven (7) interviews conducted with the complaining witnesses by Psychologist Stanley Katz. Stanley Katz detailed the alleged conduct that formed the basis of the complaint, and the complaint mirrored his interviews and reports to law enforcement.  In addition, law enforcement conducted more than two (2) dozen interviews with the complaining witnesses, and more than a hundred separate interviews with other witnesses.

Mr. Jackson voluntarily surrendered to the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Office on November 20, 2003, and was arraigned on the original charges on January 16, 2004. Mr. Jackson pleaded not guilty. However, the prosecution soon abandoned the December 18, 2003, Complaint and convened a Grand Jury to return an Indictment against Mr. Jackson. Without the benefit of witness cross-examination, the Grand Jury issued an indictment on April 26, 2004, consisting of one (1) count of conspiracy with five (5) other-unindicted individuals in violation of Penal Code section 1S2, four (4) counts of Lewd Acts Upon a Child in violation of Penal Code section 288a, one (1) count of Attempted Lewd Act Upon a Child in violation of Penal Code sections 664 and 288a, and four (4) counts of Administration an Intoxicant Ln the Commission of a Felony in violation of Penal Code section 222.

2. The witnesses changed the dates and facts for the indictment

 The Indictment was markedly different from the December 18, 2003, Complaint. The Complaint contained seven (7) counts of Lewd Acts Upon a Child, where the Indictment contained only four (4), plus one of Attempted Lewd Act Upon a Child. Somewhere, the perception of the facts in this case was significantly altered, and the Indictment no longer followed the details and chronology recounted by Psychologist Katz.

In addition, the Complaint alleged two (2) counts of Administration of an Intoxicant, where the Indictment alleged four (4). In view of repeated interviews and witness statements, the change in facts, counts, and dates has created an irreconcilable inconsistency with no explanation.

The dates of the alleged crimes also changed. The Complaint said five (5) of the seven (7) “lewd acts” allegedly occurred “on or between February 7, 2003 and March 10, 2003,” and all the other counts occurred between February 20 and March 10, 2003. But the Indictment now says that all but the new conspiracy charges occurred between February 20, and March 12. 2003. Now it is a conspiracy starting February 7, but no lewd act until February 20. This was not just a narrowing of the time period, but it was also a lengthening of the time period. Suddenly, something happened on March 12 that was not included in the Complaint.

In the Indictment, Mr. Jackson was charged with conspiracy to engage in Child Abduction, False Imprisonment, and Extortion. He was not indicted on the actual objects of the conspiracy itself, nor were these acts charged as stand-alone crimes or attempted crimes. Not even the alleged co-conspirators arc charged with the crimes.

Much thanks to David Edwards for the above synopsis

The chart below is originally from the Veritas Project (a website you should definitely check out, which shows how all of the people in the 1993 and 2003 cases, were connected.  I’ve also included various sources with lots of information on both cases below as well:

http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/main.html

http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/index2.html

http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/summary.html

Regarding Diane Dimond:  http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/part3.html

Regarding Jury Pool Tainting:  http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/part4.html

Regarding DA Tom Sneddon:  http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/part2.html and also:  http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/santabarbara.html and this http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/tomsneddon.html

Michael Jackson had always denied any wrongdoing: http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/settlement.html

  • March 10th, 2003:  All alleged molestation ends.  Accuser and his family leave Neverland (this is from the second, changed story that the Arvizo family told later on).
  • March 10th, 2003:  LA social workers report their findings…listen to THIS!  Accuser’ family deny abuse, praise Jackson  NOTE that on the very same day in real time, LA social workers report that the family has denied abuse and praise Michael Jackson…YET…when the Arvizo’s change their story, they state this exact date as the date that suddenly the molestation ended and they left Neverland!
  • April 16:  Santa Barbara closes case stating that the evidence of criminal activity had not been met.
  • June 13:  Santa Barbara re-opens case after hearing Dr. Katz’s interview with the family which alleges abuse..so begins the 2nd version of the story being told by the accuser and his family….This interview included in this report was conducted by 3 Los Angeles social workers.  They repeated ver batum, all the statements made by the accuser and his family (it was taped).

In a televised interview, former Santa Barbara county Sheriff Thomas stated that the accuser had not confided in anyone until June…that his mother, brother and siblings didn’t know yet that Gavin had been molested, yet, if you know the details, in COURT, both Davellin and Star (sister and brother to Gavin) would go on to testify that they “witnessed” molestation and inappropriate behavior.  So again, a complete twisting of the story.  First they told authorities that they had just found out, just now, in June at the time…and in court, they stated that they actually witnessed the events!

So this case was not just about whether or not a boy was abused, or not (the emphasis being on NOT), but the entire details of the case changed…it was a complete change of story by the entire accuser’s family and the accuser himself.  First, he’s a good guy, wonderful, a father figure, humble, kind, loving, helped Gavin overcome cancer, and then suddenly they change the entire story and he’s a monster, he never helped them, Michael never helped Gavin in his cancer, he gave them liquor, they were in his bed….YET…check again the DCFS document above…where the mother of the accuser stated in this official document, that the children were never left alone with Michael Jackson, and that the times they slept in his bed, the entertainer (Michael Jackson) did NOT sleep in the bed with them, but rather slept on the floor.

In fact, the accusors had spoken VERY differently about Michael on several occassions, including what was shared in this excerpt of Aphrodite Jones’ book “The Michael Jackson Conspiracy”.  Mrs. Jones was a reporter covering the 2005 trial who believed Michael was guilty, until she had the facts, and consequently changed her mind.

Below is a quote from the Arvizo family, the ones who would then change their entire story and turn around and charge him with child molestation in 2003:  Here, they talk about Michael helping them and praying with them and talking to them about God.

This is an excerpt from Aphrodite Jones’ book “The Michael Jackson Conspiracy, with a foreword by Attorney Tom Mesereau”:

“The exact words that the Arvizo’s used to describe Michael were:  honest, very trustworthy, humble, loving, caring, funny, unselfish and attentive.  (this is from the same rebuttal video you will view below….something that the Arvizo’s had agreed to be a part of, before they turned around and changed everything they said…where part of the time they didn’t know they were being filmed)

Gavin spoke of the faith Michael gave him, of the faith Michael kept telling him to have, of Michael providing him with the faith to look forward to the future.  Gavin said that he never forgot Michael’s words, asserting that early on, he, depended on those words of faith to get him through many rounds of chemotherapy.

Janet looked into the camera and said that the doctors told her to “plan for a funeral”.  She said that the doctors told her that if the cancer didn’t kill Gavin, the chemotherapy would.  When Janet complained to Michael that her son was “not going to make it”, Michael would tell her not to listen to that.  Michael insisted that Gavin would live.  Years later Gavin would be told by doctors that there was no scientific explanation for him to be alive, that his cancer cure was a “miracle.”

Davellin told the jury that Michael Jackson had initially called her brother while he was at the hospital and later made calls to Gavin (Gavin was able to meet Michael through a show business contact who owned a comedy club and after learning of Gavin’s fatal illness, wanted to help make the boys’ wish come true) at his grandparents’ home.  All throughout this period, Michael was calling to give Gavin the hope to grow strong, telling Gavin to eat up all the cancer cells like Packman.”    Michael was trying to teach Gavin a visualization technique, suggesting that the boy visualize himself using healthy cells to eat up unhealthy cells.  Jackson wanted the boy to get well and invited him to make his way to Neverland.

Janet told the private investigator that she and her children had no stories to sell to the media, that whatever the media was trying to buy just didn’t exist.  The relationship between Michael Jackson and her children was pure and innocent.  Janet said that MIchael had prayed along with her and her kids, that Michael had talked to them about God.”

This tape, an excerpt from “The Untold Story of Neverland”, which are clips of Neverland and various aspects of the trial and what led up to it by Emmy-nominated filmmaker, Larry Nimmer

Now, how did the Arvizo’s change their story?  What prompted them to do so?  Did they have a history of this kind of behavior?

A little background on the Chandlers (1993 accusations) and Arvizo’s (2005 trial):

Consider This…

  • Did you happen to know that the Arvizo family (Gavin Arvizo is the boy who accused Michael Jackson of child molestation in 2003) tried to get money from other celebrities before Michael Jackson and that Gavin denied up until the last minute, that Michael had ever done anything inappropriate with him?

I have done an interview with someone who befriended and went to school with Gavin Arvizo before the accusations and also spoke to him afterwards and this interview will show that Gavin also told this friend and others, that Michael NEVER did anything to him and that this had become a way of life for him (lying/extortion).  This interview audio will be up soon.

The list of celebrities that the Arvizo’s tried to get money from includes Jay Leno, Chris Tucker and George Lopez.  Janet Arvizo, the boy’s mother, also had a record of making false prior allegations of sexual assault, physical assault and being held hostage in 3 other instances before Michael Jackson, which included her ex-husband and JCPenney/Tower Records guards.  She also made similar allegations against her father.

  • Did you know that while Janet Arvizo and her family were supposedly being held hostage by Michael, she was out charging expensive beauty treatments for herself to Michael’s account out and about town, where she could easily have had access to a phone to call for help?
  • Did you realize that Gavin Arvizo, the boy who accused Michael of child molestation, had a prior record of shoplifting?
  • Did you know that the Arvizo family filmed a rebuttal video to Martin Bashir’s documentary where they glowingly talked about how wonderful Michael has been to them, how he treated them like family, how loving he had been and how he had helped heal Gavin of his Stage 4 terminal cancer because he had given the boy hope and encouraged him to keep fighting for his life?  Later, they would claim that they were forced to make this tape and that it was all scripted for them.  As you have seen already in the video above, this was not the case.  You can clearly see that this was not scripted as Janet Arvizo is practically gushing about Michael and all that he has done for them and Janet and her daughter at times get emotional talking about Michael and how good he has been to them.  Not too long after they had made this tape and also praised Michael to others, they brought charges against him.
  • Did you know that there are clocks all over Neverland?  Gavin Arvizo claimed that they were being held hostage by Michael and that they were never allowed to know the time, which seems highly unlikely in the fact that clocks are displayed all over the Neverland grounds, including the big clock in the lawn.  The Arvizo’s had also claimed being kidnapped and held hostage by others prior to meeting Michael Jackson.
  • Did you know Neverland property is not unpenetrable?  There is a short, ranch-style fence that can easily be jumped over or gone “through”, which also seems to seriously discredit the Arvizo’s stand that they were being held hostage.
  • Did you know that the guest house that the Arvizo’s stayed in was the same guest house that has hosted Elizabeth Taylor, Marlon Brando and others and was right next to the main house?
  • Did you realize that Jordan Chandler, the boy behind the 1993 allegations, denied that Michael ever did anything improper to him UNTIL Michael refused to fund Evan Chandler’s (the boy’s father) new movie project for $20 million?  Which ended up being the same amount that Michael ended up having to settle for?  Evan Chandler, who was a dentist and aspiring screenwriter, claimed that he gave his son a mind-altering barbituate drug during a tooth extraction and that under this drug, the boy admitted wrong-doing on Michael’s part. Geraldine Hughes, who was the legal secretary to Barry Rothman (the lawyer Evan Chandler contacted), was witness to the extortion.  There is much more to this story though, as you’ll find out in my interview with Geraldine Hughes,  Evan (Jordan Chandler’s father) was taped saying that he was going to ruin Michael Jackson.  Coincidence?
  • DID YOU KNOW that Jordie Chandler’s (the boy who accused Jackson in 1993) description of Michael Jackson’s private parts, was absolutely WRONG?

From the VindicateMJ blog, which has done extensive research and coverage on both cases:

“In addition to getting the circumcision issue WRONG (Jordie’s drawing showed a circumcised penis and Michael was not circumcised), Jordan Chandler also claimed that MJ had a dark penis with light splotches, when in fact he had a LIGHT penis with DARK splotches! (Just like the rest of his body!)”

Just as a sidenote:  None of this is being brought up to invade what I feel should be Michael’s privacy…unfortunately, the media and all those involved in the accusations that came against Michael Jackson, completely took away his privacy and the only way to debunk the lies, is, to tell the truth, and unfortunately, that means that once again, Michael’s privacy is invaded to some degree.  This question comes up many, many times for people seeking truth about his guilt or innocence, so in order to show that he was indeed innocent and that it was all a lie, it becomes imperative to speak about it as the false information is already out there and it’s imperative that it’s debunked in order to show the truth.

It’s obvious in this video how upset he is over what happened to him (wouldn’t we all be?), how he was treated, the false charges of molestation and the strip search he was subjected to and had no right to refuse.  Very difficult to watch without wanting to cry yourself.  Again…do we GET IT yet?  When does the hate stop?  For those who continue to spread the lies or make jokes…has it sunk in yet?  We must stop this kind of hate and embrace the love that God asks us to and that Jesus’ died on the cross to make available to us.

Jordan Chandler’s description of Michael’s private parts…it was completely WRONG!  Read more here (links below):

Was Jordan Chandler’s description of Michael Jackson’s genitalia accurate?

In 1994, sources told USA Today that “photos of Michael Jackson’s genitalia do not match descriptions given by the boy who accused the singer of sexual misconduct.” Because this statement came from anonymous sources, some Jackson critics are quick to dismiss the article as erroneous and continue to insist that Jordan Chandler’s description was accurate. There has never been any evidence to substantiate this claim; on the other hand, the fact that no charges were ever brought against Jackson indicates that the description did NOT match. A member of the grand jury in 1994 even told CNN that “no damaging evidence was heard.”

http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/faq.html#2

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-it-but-were-always-afraid-to-ask-part-1/

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-it-but-were-afraid-to-ask-part-2/

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-it-but-were-afraid-to-ask-part-3/

The above VindicateMJ blog series was written by Helena of the VindicateMJ blog

Further information on Jordie Chandler’s description and how it was an epic miss, keep reading:

JIM THOMAS, FORMER SANTA BARBARA COUNTY SHERIFF said about the photographs of Michael Jackson’s genitals and Jordan Chandler’s description of them:

  • “Well, what I hear from my investigators from back then is that it was almost identical. I don‘t know that to be a fact, because I didn‘t view them. But I understand they were very consistent.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8044583

I really feel sorry for this guy. The Verital Project says that the photographs of Michael’s genitals were so popular with the policemen at the time of the 1993 investigation that almost everyone in the sheriff department saw them  – except the poor Santa Barbara county sheriff who was actually the one who was investigating the case!

Ridiculous though it is, this quote made me think that many of us still listen too much to “Who says What” about that alleged match – while we are quite capable to do without the valuable opinion of these people and reach for the truth all by ourselves…

And the facts already found here show that the so-called “match” Thomas was speaking about is a LIE which doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Source:  http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/was-it-match-or-mismatch/

More very important information for truth (see the links below): 

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/the-story-of-one-telltale-splotch-missing-from-the-smokin-gunpublic-eye/

Many thanks to Helena of the VindicateMJ blog for the above blog post

http://mjjr.net/content/mjcase/civilsuit.html

What really happened in 1993? 

  • Did you happen to know that both boys’ parents, in both cases, used the same lawyer and same psychologist?
  • Did you know that pedophiles have hundreds of victims, not just two?
  • Did you realize that DA Tom Sneddon searched several COUNTRIES for victims of Michael Jackson, AND had a website looking for any information on Michael, and found NO ONE!
  • Did you know that there was no DNA evidence found (not even a hair, body fluid, anything) found at Neverland Ranch during the 2003 raid according to Michael’s attorney Tom Mesereau?

Mesereau went on to say in his interview with Jay Leno that DNA is always found in these types of cases if a crime was committed.

As far as Gavin Arvizo (the boy who falsely accused Michael Jackson in 2003?)  David Edwards takes him and the media, to task as well:

Sneddon wanted Gavin to testify in private, but Mesereau objected because MJ had a constitutional right to confront his accuser in open court, while the media objected strictly because their 1st Amendment Rights would have been violated. in their pleading, not once did they mention that MJ had a right to confront his accuser; they only were concerned about their own agenda

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/transcript-of-matt-drudge%E2%80%99s-vehement-defense-of-michael-jackson-in-2005/

Many thanks to David Edwards for the blog post above

The above VindicateMJ blog post links include blog posts of which some are credited to Helena O, the owner of the blog, and some are credited to David Edwards, one of the writers for the blog.  Many thanks to them both for their contributions.

These statements are just a tip of the iceberg on the truths that surround the Michael Jackson molestation cases, and unfortunately, much of the public isn’t aware of them because the media did not report much of these facts and focused instead on the prosecution while leaving out much of what happened with the defense during the trial.

Okay….BRACE YOURSELF FOR THIS!!!!

This may shock many who have not yet seen this and I think it paints a very clear picture as to what was going on behind the scenes and where the loyalties lie.  

We have talked about how so many in both cases were connected, including people from the media (who were making their living off of writing and reporting lies about Michael Jackson).  Here even more disturbing news with pictures to prove it, of connections between people that are obviously a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

David Edwards, in his blog post of the transcription of the “Frozen In Time” seminar with Tom Mesereau, shows you other disturbing connections between people involved with going after Michael Jackson (Tom Sneddon) and someone who has made a living off of lying about Michael Jackson and getting the public to believe the lies (Diane Dimond).  She is also pictured with Ron Zonen (the prosecutor in the 2005 trial!!!), Zonen’s girlfriend Louise Palanker (who was, believe it or not, a friend of the Arvizo’s and a prosecution witness and below they are all pictured with Stacy Brown, who wrote a scathing, disgusting book of lies on Michael Jackson.

Are you starting to connect the dots yet?

From David Edwards:

 No conflict of interest?  Are you kidding me, Court TV?  And Dimond isn’t just all warm and cozy with Sneddon!  Here are some photos with her and her buddies Ron Zonen, his “girlfriend” Louise Palanker (a friend of the Arvizos and a prosecution witness), and Jackson family traitor Stacy Brown! These are posted on Palanker’s blog.

Louise Palanker, a friend of the Arvizos who is now “engaged” to prosecutor Ron Zonen,having lunch with Zonen, Dimond, and Stacy Brown, who co-wrote “The Man Behind The Mask” with Bob Jones (in the 1st photo above).

And here is a breakdown of a radio interview conducted in July 2007 with Dimond, Palanker, and Zonen!

@ 1:40 when Dimond asked Zonen about the difference between a mediator and a prosecutor, and he makes an ironic comment that crime victims (SUCH AS MOLESTATION!!) don’t want to “mediate” anything with their perpetrators; instead they want that person literally executed! When I heard this, I immediately thought of Evan Chandler, of course! Instead of seeking justice against MJ, he wanted to negotiate film deal?!!!

Fast-forward to @ 32:00 They joke about “banishing MJ” (in reference to rehabbing MJ for his crimes), and then Dimond goes on to spread more rumors about him having liver failure due to drugs and alcohol, and wanting to be a “greeter” and have fans pay to meet him and chit chat. Zonen went on to say that he doesn’t believe that MJ can still sing. They then go on to whine about getting his kids taken away from him, and insinuating that MJ is a bad father because he has the audacity to homeschool his kids. According to Zonen, MJ fans are “idiots” and “morons”. The highlight of this segment, and probably the entire show, was @ 42:00 where Zonen says that MJ is STILL GUILTY, and why is Jesse Jackson and Mesereau SUPPORTING MJ?!! Palanker said that Mesereau LIED in his opening statements about her and the Arvizos! This segment is a prelude of what we can expect from Zonen next week at the Los Angeles Law Seminar! (Which will be sold on DVD, in case you guys didn’t know!)

@ 57:00 They bring up one of MJ’s lawyers Howard Weitzman, who initially represented him in 1993, and sued Dimond and V. Guitterez over that videotape, and Dimond mocked him for it by saying that he was trying to “silence her”.

@ 73:00 Zonen is asked about if he has ever tried a case that he didn’t believe in (i.e. did he think the person was truly guilty). Zonen told a story about how he wrongfully convicted someone, and then filed a motion to have him declared factually innocent. I wonder if he’ll ever do the same thing with MJ? Probably not!

@ 83:00 Zonen has the audacity to criticize Mike Nifong, the prosecutor of the Duke Lacrosse players, for his malicious prosecution. Ironically, he says that Nifong was heavily influenced by the weight of people descending on him to control the direction of the investigation. (i.e. people like Rev.’s Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who wanted to prosecute because they initially believed the accuser.) Of course, this same thing happened with Sneddon, with people like Dimond and Gloria Allred pressuring him to investigate MJ after the Bashir doc. aired. He also said that Nifong should have used better judgement when evaluating the credibility of the accuser, which he admitted was NONE! Coming from Zonen and Dimond, this is pretty disgusting because they obviously practice a “do as I say, not as I do” mentality! This is literally stand up comedy! Zonen describes how the Duke players had legitimate alibis, but yet MJ had one too, so he and Sneddon rearranged the dates of the molestation!

http://www.talkitoverradio.com/blog/_archives/2007/7/9/3081779.html

According to the MJJ-777 blog, Palanker gave the Arvizo family money while Gavin Arvizo was ill.  She also testified in the trial and to this day holds to her opinion that Michael Jackson was guilty.

http://www.mj-777.com/?p=5511

I think of high interest is not her opinion of Michael Jackson being guilty, but rather her associations with people who were all hell-bent on convicting Michael due to what appears to be their own agendas.

Are you ready to learn the TRUTH of what happened in both 1993 and 2003 and during the 2005 Trial of Michael Jackson?  Here are some resources:

Learn more about both cases HERE

You can read most of the 2005 trial in-court transcripts HERE  This includes testimony by Gavin Arvizo and his brother and sister, as well as other key witnesses.

There are also over 300 Court Documents which you can access HERE. (thanks again to David Edwards for this link).  The documents include mostly pleadings between the defense, prosecution, and the media.

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/ctevents.php

The above link will take you to all of the court events and what motions were filed

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/ctdocs.php

You can do a document search at the above links

http://smokewithoutfiremichaeljackson.wordpress.com/

http://smokewithoutfiremichaeljackson.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-untold-story/

The website above explores in-depth the untold story of the Michael Jackson trial

Details on both trials and links to interviews, video and much more:

http://www.reflectionsonthedance.com/The-accusations.html

You will also see that the media’s only concern was access to anything and everything in this trial, as David Edwards puts it, to spin it, make Michael Jackson look guilty, get your viewership and make money off of this story.

Here, blogger David Edwards speaks out

The media didn’t give a damn about MJ’s right to a fair trial, they just wanted to televise EVERYTHING, and they wanted access to EVERYTHING so they could spin it and make him look guilty. they knew EXACTLY what they were doing!

By taking a look at the documents, this will give you a very good idea of why this trial was a complete farce, how lacking in credit and believability the witnesses were and how, without a doubt, Michael was INNOCENT!

You can also view a documentary that will blow the case wide open as well, which I highly recommend viewing.  Larry Nimmer, award-winning and Emmy-nominated filmmaker, created this DVD that clearly shows what happened in the 2005 trial.

About the DVD

Preview of the DVD

(see clips of the DVD, including the raid of Neverland Ranch, some of Gavin Arvizo’s interrogation, and much more)

PICTURE OF MICHAEL AND QUOTE ABOUT MEDIA LIES

Below…yet another instance where the media lied about Michael’s behavior around children.  Here, the boy himself is debunking the rumor!  Richard Matsuura, a boy who had spent 4 days with Michael, denies a Vanity Fair article that states that he was given wine by Michael.

Richard Matsuura

Matsura stated that Michael NEVER said or did anything inappropriate over the 4 days he spent in his company.  Matsura said that he himself did drink a champagne toast under his father’s supervision and that he did later become sick.  Michael never gave him the alcohol as stated in Maureen Orth’s “Vanity Fair” article.

Subsequently, after this came out, Orth says she was never able to actually speak to Richard Matsura, but that she stands by her own source’s story.  Can I just say this…..WHAT????

My question is….when did getting the story second-hand instead of straight from the horse’s mouth, replace honest journalism????

The best source for a story is ALWAYS, ALWAYS the person in question whenever possible.  Here that would be Richard Matsura.  In her other articles, she should have spoken to Michael himself…but my guess is Michael would not give her the time of day.

Anybody can claim they have spoken to all kinds of sources, however, the truth comes out in time…because truth will always play itself out and Maureen’s stories were complete bunk.  How can I say that?  Simple.  Because once you begin to know and see who Michael really was, once you see the truth, what kind of person he was, the truth behind all that came against him, her stories hold absolutely no water.  Michael’s character stands true.  God is all about truth.  Her stories and stories like them can’t survive in the light and wither without the lies that back them up.

For those who don’t know the history of Maureen Orth and her personal vendetta against Michael Jackson, here is but a brief example of the idiosy of her articles written about Jackson with a poison pen, for Vanity Fair Magazine:

This from the Vanity Fair homepage in June 2009:

“…I spoke to hundreds of people who knew Jackson and, in the course of my reporting, found families who had given their sons up to him and paid dearly for it. I found people who had been asked to supply him with drugs. I even found the business manager who told me on-the-record how he had had to wire $150,000 to a voodoo chief in Mali who had 42 cows ritually sacrificed in order to put a curse on David Geffen, Steven Spielberg, and 23 others on Jackson’s enemies list. I sat through two trials and watched his bizarre behavior on the stand when he said he did not recognize his publicist of a decade.”

Come on now.  Does she really expect us to believe that a man who dearly loved animals, and would not even kill a spider that was on stage during one of his performances, that he would wire money to have cows sacrificed!  This is the kind of lunacy that the public is actually BELIEVING (yet, they won’t believe the things that Michael Jackson says about himself or take the time to find out the truth)…

The irony is that we are being brainwashed into believing that it was Michael that was odd and bizarre!  News Flash!  We have lost our sensibility.  We grab on to horror stories that not only are absolutely crazy, but are also false, and we believe them simply because somebody said so!  Have we sunk SO LOW as a society that we are actually being drawn into believing that a man who his entire life gave to others and cared deeply about animals and children and gave of his time and money and fought so hard for peace and wanting humanity to love one another…would do something this horrific and sick?  If this is what award-winning journalism looks like, then I am truly scared.

Stay Tuned for Part 3 of this series, where we will explore:  

  • Minister claims that “We are the World” is the most demonic song ever written.  Is this true?  
  • Also Very in-depth analysis on the number 777 and it’s significance as well as it’s significance to Michael Jackson
  • “You will know them by their fruits”  Scriptural proof that Michael Jackson was a man of God
  • What is a corybantes?…minister accuses Michael of being one, and how that ties into his vitiligo 
  • Some shocking things about vitiligo that you may well have never seen and not know about
  • The direct connection between accusing Michael of being a devil worshipper and how that directly correlates to the accusations about his being a child molester.
  • Accusations about demonic lyrics, etc. vs. the truth about Michael’s spiritual lyrics and lots more!
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